On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum examines how protectionism, once a fringe idea in U.S. politics, became central to modern Republican trade policy. He traces how President Donald Trump made tariffs a political weapon, and why these policies continue to carry political appeal despite their economic cost.
Then David is joined by the historian and trade expert Doug Irwin for a conversation about what tariffs actually do. Irwin explains how protectionist policies have repeatedly backfired in American history, why they persist, and how the U.S. abandoned the bipartisan free-trade consensus that lasted for nearly a century. The two discuss who really pays for tariffs, why tariffs rarely achieve their stated goals, and what it would take to rebuild political support for open markets.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Subscribe today at TheAtlantic.com/listener.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
--------
58:15
--------
58:15
The Fight for the Political Center
On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about President Donald Trump’s escalating attacks on press freedom. David discusses Trump’s lawsuit against The Wall Street Journal, explains how Trump is using presidential power to suppress coverage of his alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein, and argues that Trump’s second term represents a deeper threat to the First Amendment than anything seen in modern American history.
Then David is joined by Representative Ritchie Torres of New York for a conversation about the future of the Democratic Party. Torres explains why the Democratic center has become too passive; how the far left gained influence through intensity, not majorities; and why slogans alone can’t solve America’s affordability crisis. They discuss the rise of performative politics, the need for a serious governing agenda, and Torres’s personal journey from public housing to Congress.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
--------
52:35
--------
52:35
The Wrecking of the FBI
On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about President Donald Trump’s decision to shut down the conversation around the federal investigation into Jeffrey Epstein. David explains why Trump’s move has triggered backlash from parts of his own base and why it reveals a deeper political fracture inside the MAGA movement.
Then David is joined by the former FBI counterintelligence official Peter Strzok, who shares his insights on what’s happening at the bureau during Trump’s second term. Strzok, who is still engaged in a lawsuit with the government over his 2018 firing, explains how Trump loyalists such as the FBI’s director, Kash Patel, and its deputy director, Dan Bongino, are dismantling the agency’s national-security functions: purging experts, sidelining investigations, and leaving the United States dangerously vulnerable to terrorism, foreign espionage, and cyberattacks.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
--------
1:02:50
--------
1:02:50
The Courts Won’t Save Democracy From Trump
On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning about the deep implications of President Donald Trump’s “One Big Beautiful Bill”—not only for Americans’ rights and freedoms, but also for the future of American economic strength. David argues that Trump’s budget and tax policies are reshaping the U.S. economy in ways that will leave the country poorer, less innovative, and more isolated from the rest of the world than we were before.
David is then joined by George Conway for a conversation about the dangers our legal institutions are facing in the Trump presidency. They discuss Conway’s journey from corporate litigator to outspoken critic of Trump, the dangers of relying on courts to restrain executive lawlessness, and the failure of Congress to uphold its constitutional duties. Conway also explains why our legal system, even when functioning properly, may be structurally incapable of stopping a president who is determined to ignore the law.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
--------
54:14
--------
54:14
Trump’s Betrayal of Ukraine
On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with a warning: The United States’ support for Ukraine is collapsing under Donald Trump’s second term—and with it, the global system of peace and security that has protected Americans for decades. David explains what Trump’s latest actions reveal about his motivations, and why Ukraine’s survival may now depend on the outcome of the 2024 election.
Then David is joined by the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine and now Democratic congressional candidate Bridget Brink, who served under both President Biden and President Trump. They discuss the true stakes of the war, the failure of the Trump administration to develop or execute a coherent Ukraine policy, and why Brink ultimately chose to resign her post. She offers a firsthand account of life in Kyiv during the early days of the full-scale invasion, the dangers facing American diplomats in war zones, and the institutional breakdowns now threatening U.S. foreign policy from within.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at theAtlantic.com/listener.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
To defend democracy, one has to believe in it. To believe in democracy, one has to understand it. Where it came from. How it works. What’s true. What’s not. What others did before you. How it could be better. How to make a difference.
Each week, The David Frum Show digs deep into the big questions people have about our society, explains the progress Americans have made together, and reminds us that the American idea is worth defending.
Netherlands