The Deconstructionists

What does it really mean to be present with another person?
In Part Two of John's conversation with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, the discussion moves beyond defining modern chaplaincy and into the heart of spiritual care itself.
Rather than offering easy answers or trying to fix people's pain, today's chaplains often practice something much more difficult: accompanying people through uncertainty, grief, trauma, and profound life transitions. In a culture that values certainty, productivity, and quick solutions, this conversation explores the transformative power of simply showing up.
Rev. Sally shares how contemporary chaplains understand their work—not as experts dispensing wisdom, but as compassionate companions helping people navigate some of life's most sacred and challenging moments.
Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:
Why presence can be more powerful than having the right words.
What chaplains can teach all of us about listening.
The role of empathy, curiosity, and accompaniment in spiritual care.
How grief, suffering, and meaning intersect.
Why human connection is becoming increasingly valuable in an age shaped by technology and AI.
What it looks like to care for people across different faiths, beliefs, and worldviews.
How we can all become better companions to those who are hurting.

Whether you're a person of faith, someone deconstructing long-held beliefs, or simply interested in becoming more present for the people around you, this conversation offers practical wisdom and a hopeful vision of what compassionate care can look like.
Guest:
Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate), is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is the author of the forthcoming New Images of Spiritual Care, which highlights the diverse voices and innovative practices shaping contemporary chaplaincy.
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What comes to mind when you hear the word "chaplain"?
For many of us, it's an older Christian minister carrying a Bible into a hospital room to pray with patients. But what if that image no longer reflects the reality of modern spiritual care?
In Part One of this conversation, John sits down with Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, board-certified chaplain, ACPE Certified Educator, and Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at Johns Hopkins Hospital, to explore how chaplaincy has transformed over the past several decades.
Today's chaplains come from an extraordinary range of religious and philosophical traditions—including Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Humanism, Unitarian Universalism, and more. Rather than focusing on converting people or providing religious answers, modern spiritual care emphasizes presence, curiosity, accompaniment, and compassionate listening during life's most vulnerable moments.
Together, John and Rev. Sally discuss:
Why most of us have an outdated picture of what a chaplain is.
The fascinating history and evolution of chaplaincy.
What board-certified chaplains actually do.
Why spiritual care is about far more than religion.
How hospitals care for patients with widely different beliefs and worldviews.
The shift from authority and hierarchy toward relationship and mutuality.
Why "being present" can sometimes be more healing than having the right answers.

Whether you're deeply religious, spiritually curious, deconstructing your faith, or simply interested in what it means to care well for another human being, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on one of the most misunderstood professions in healthcare.
Guest:
Rev. Sally Pelinka Miller, MDiv, MA (DMin candidate) is a Board Certified Chaplain (APC), an ACPE Certified Educator, and serves as Manager of Clinical Pastoral Education at The Johns Hopkins Hospital. She is currently writing New Images of Spiritual Care, a book exploring the diverse voices and evolving practices shaping modern chaplaincy.
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What if one of the Bible's most famous stories isn't really about a hero and a villain?
For centuries, many of us have been taught to read the story of Jacob and Esau through a familiar lens: Jacob, despite his flaws, is God's chosen son, while Esau becomes little more than the cautionary tale of the brother who "despised his birthright." But what happens when we slow down, revisit the text, and listen to voices from within the Jewish tradition?
In this episode of The Deconstructionists, John explores one of Genesis' most fascinating—and misunderstood—relationships. Drawing on insights from Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in Essays on Ethics and Not in God's Name, as well as reflections from Rabbi David Wolpe, this conversation examines how the story of Jacob and Esau challenges simplistic readings of Scripture and invites us into a richer understanding of reconciliation, identity, and what it means to become fully human.
Rather than reading Genesis as a collection of moral fables with obvious heroes and villains, we consider the possibility that the biblical authors were doing something far more profound: exposing the cycles of sibling rivalry, fear, favoritism, and violence that have echoed throughout human history.
Along the way, we explore why Jacob spends so much of his life wrestling—not only with God, but with himself—and why his eventual reunion with Esau may be one of the most emotionally powerful moments in all of Scripture.
Could it be that the real transformation wasn't simply Jacob becoming Israel... but two brothers finally seeing one another clearly?
In This Episode
Why Jacob and Esau are far more complex than they're often portrayed
The ancient Near Eastern world behind the Genesis narrative
Why Jewish interpretations often differ from traditional Christian readings
What Rabbi Jonathan Sacks means when he argues that Genesis repeatedly challenges sibling rivalry
How Not in God's Name reframes stories of election and chosenness
The surprising significance of Jacob's wrestling match before meeting Esau
Why Jacob sends gifts ahead of himself—and whether they are simply a bribe or something deeper
Rabbi David Wolpe's reflection on mirrors in the ancient world, and how Jacob and Esau may have seen themselves in one another after decades apart
The emotional power of forgiveness and reconciliation in Genesis 33
What Jacob and Esau still have to teach us about family, conflict, identity, and grace today
Books Referenced
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks — Essays on Ethics
Rabbi Jonathan Sacks — Not in God's Name: Confronting Religious Violence
Additional insights discussed from the teachings of Rabbi David Wolpe
A Few Questions We Explore
Was Jacob always intended to be understood as the hero of this story?
What does it really mean to be "chosen" in Genesis?
Why does the Bible spend so much time telling stories about rival siblings?
What changes when we read Genesis through the lens of Jewish scholarship?
Is reconciliation ever possible without first confronting who we've become? 

Like the music? Check out Forrest Clay anywhere you find your music! The song featured on this episode is "Does God" off his Recover EP.

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In Part 2 of our conversation with grief coach, author, and podcaster Shelby Forsythia, we dive deeper into her brand-new book, Of Course I'm Here Right Now.
Most of us want to help when someone we love is grieving. The problem is that we've never been taught how. Instead, we fall back on clichés, platitudes, and well-meaning advice that often leaves grieving people feeling even more isolated.
Shelby argues that what grieving people need most isn't fixing, solving, or explaining. They need presence.
In this episode, we explore why grief makes people uncomfortable, how our culture's lack of grief literacy creates secondary losses, and the surprisingly simple phrases that can help someone feel seen and supported during life's hardest moments.
Whether you've experienced profound loss yourself or want to be a better support for someone who has, this conversation offers practical wisdom, compassion, and a fresh way of understanding grief.
In This Episode
Why grief isn't a problem to solve
The hidden ways people become isolated after loss
What NOT to say to someone who is grieving
Why "at least..." statements often do more harm than good
The difference between helping and fixing
How grief changes friendships and relationships
The role of presence versus advice
The importance of grief literacy in modern culture
Practical phrases anyone can use to support a grieving friend
What inspired Shelby to write Of Course I'm Here Right Now
Why grief can become one of life's greatest teachers
About Shelby Forsythia
Shelby Forsythia is a grief coach, author, podcast host, and founder of Life After Loss Academy. After losing her mother at a young age, she became what she calls a "student of grief," dedicating her work to helping people navigate life after devastating loss. She is the author of Permission to Grieve, Your Grief, Your Way, and her newest book, Of Course I'm Here Right Now: Three Actually Helpful Things to Say to Someone Grieving.
Connect with Shelby
Website: Shelby Forsythia Official Website
Book: Of Course I'm Here Right Now
Podcast: Coming Back Podcast Archive
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What happens when grief changes not just your life… but your identity?
In part one of this conversation, John sits down with author, grief guide, and speaker Shelby Forsythia to discuss her new book and the complicated, deeply human realities of loss, healing, and personal transformation.
Together, they explore the myths we inherit about grief, why so many people feel pressure to “move on” too quickly, and how grief can quietly reshape our relationships, spirituality, and sense of self. Rather than offering clichés or easy answers, Shelby approaches grief with honesty, compassion, and a willingness to sit with uncertainty — something longtime listeners of The Deconstructionists will likely find familiar.
Topics include:
Why grief is not a linear process
The cultural pressure to “get over” loss
How grief impacts identity and spirituality
Emotional honesty versus performative healing
Why many people feel isolated in their pain
The connection between grief and personal growth
Learning to live alongside loss rather than “defeating” it
Shelby’s work offers a compassionate alternative to the toxic positivity and oversimplified narratives that often surround grief conversations.
If this conversation resonates with you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the episode with someone who may need it.
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