Stephan Livera Podcast

Andrew Webley walks through Smarter Web's capital structure—ordinary shares as growth equity, a repaid short convert, Coinbase credit, and MORE as the income preferred.
Webley is CEO of The Smarter Web Company (LSE: SWC), the UK's largest publicly traded Bitcoin treasury. He traces the path from Hargreaves Lansdown to listing on Aquis, then the LSE Main Market, while building toward roughly 2,747 BTC on the balance sheet.
The conversation covers ordinary shares versus preferred equity, why SWC repaid its short convert, how the Coinbase credit facility fits a "buy leverage when cheap" playbook, and the launch of MORE—an income preferred designed alongside SWC growth equity. Webley contrasts treasury companies with ETFs and spot Bitcoin, stressing Bitcoin-per-share growth, liquidity for institutions, and GBP denomination without US dividend withholding.
He also flags the downsides: treasury structures amplify Bitcoin volatility, management can mess up capital allocation, and in a drawdown there is no guarantee that equity, credit, or preferreds will be available.
Timestamps:
00:00 — Intro
00:25 — Hargreaves Lansdown to Smarter Web
02:09 — Saylor Pivot Was His Bitcoin Moment
04:00 — Listing the UK Treasury Play
08:44 — Clean Balance Sheet Structure
11:25 — Coinbase Credit at the Bottom
14:32 — Debt vs NAV Reporting
19:45 — Bitcoin-per-Share vs Total Return
21:32 — How Institutions Actually Buy
25:02 — Treasury Co vs ETF vs Bitcoin
28:12 — MORE Preferred Equity Explained
30:17 — Amplification Cap at 35%
33:11 — Sterling Preferred Advantage
37:49 — Downside Risks: Volatility and Execution
40:27 — Drawdowns and Uncertain Capital Access
Links: 
https://x.com/asjwebley

https://x.com/smarterwebuk

https://www.smarterwebcompany.co.uk/

Stephan Livera links:
Follow me on X: @stephanlivera

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Bitcoiners built L402 for a Lightning-native web. Crypto built x402 for agents — and early volume is mostly stables. Ben Carman helped get Lightning into the x402 standard, and argues the pragmatic move is to meet that stack in the middle rather than wait for L402 alone.
Ben Carman of Spiral rejoin me to unpack HTTP 402 Payment Required, facilitators versus Coinbase Commerce, why agentic payments are still near zero today, and why AI agents may adopt Bitcoin faster than humans — because models already know sats, invoices, and QR codes.
Timestamps:
00:00 — Intro
00:50 — L402, x402, and MPP
01:09 — What HTTP 402 Actually Is
02:41 — Meet x402 in the Middle
03:44 — Facilitators and Coinbase Default
06:06 — x402 Standard vs Coinbase Commerce
07:26 — Stables Dominate Early Volume
08:03 — Agentic Payments Still Near Zero
08:55 — Agents Already Know Bitcoin
12:05 — Personal Agents vs B2B Agents
13:03 — Pay-Per-Query Agent Wallets
16:14 — Businesses on Bitcoin Are Easier
16:39 — AI Climb and Builder Craft
22:29 — Won't Fund OpenAI — Still Uses Them
25:38 — Cost Deflation = Human Freedom
28:57 — Best AI tools as of Oct 2
31:16 — Terminal Bench and Real Evals
32:25 — Bench Maxing vs Real Feel
34:59 — Four Years From ChatGPT
36:56 — Quantization Without the LARPs
39:51 — Mesh Alliance and Mesh LLM
42:37 — Goose, LDK, Think Big
Links: 
https://x.com/benthecarman

https://x.com/spiral_xyz

Stephan Livera links:
Follow me on X: @stephanlivera

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Bitkey ditched seed phrases for a recovery-focused 2-of-3 design: an app key, hardware key, and Block server key that use phones, hardware, and cloud access to help people retain control of their funds.
Clay Garrett, Bitkey lead at Block, joins Stephan Livera to explain the design trade-offs: safety as security plus recoverability, cloud backup that needs your hardware to decrypt, and why Bitkey does not treat vendor lock-in as its ethos.
They dig into recovery paths, multi-vendor trade-offs, transfer-without-hardware limits, Recovery Contacts and inheritance, a working FROST prototype, what covenants could move on-chain, chain code delegation, and privacy-conscious Electrum options.
Timestamps:
00:00 — Intro
00:19 — Clay Garrett Joins — Bitkey at Block
00:56 — Bitkey V2 and the 2-of-3 Model
03:03 — Safety Means Access and Recoverability
04:11 — App+Hardware Spends Without Block
07:09 — Cloud Backup and Instant Phone Swap
09:27 — Lost Hardware and the 7-Day Delay
12:14 — Vendor Lock Is Temporary, Not Ethos
15:44 — Multi-Vendor After Coldcard
21:20 — Which Wallet Fits Your Threat Model?
26:49 — $5 Wrench and Transfer Without Hardware
30:04 — Recovery Contacts and Inheritance
36:06 — FROST Prototype Already in the Repo
38:04 — On-Chain Looks Like Single-Sig
39:34 — Covenants Could Move Policy On-Chain
42:09 — Chain Code Delegation — BIP 89
46:10 — Electrum, Mempool, and Custom Servers
52:08 — Industry After Coldcard Changed
55:21 — Wallet Plus Free-for-Life Co-Signing
Links: 
https://x.com/clay_garrett

https://bitkey.world/

Stephan Livera links:
Follow me on X: @stephanlivera

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Most crypto exchanges are built like casinos: they chase the next hot token, prediction market, or trading product. Relai is building a different category—a savings brand for people who want to accumulate Bitcoin, hold it in self-custody, and build wealth over the long run. Julian Liniger explains why serving patient savers requires a different product, message, and business model.
The conversation also explores why rising living costs are pushing Europeans to rethink ordinary savings, and why the temptation to get rich quickly can drive people toward momentum trading and leverage. Julian makes the case for a longer time horizon: Bitcoin savings is less about chasing the next move and more about consistently building a position through changing market conditions.
Supporting context includes Relai's MiCA compliance journey, where regulatory overhead is costly but can also raise the bar for smaller competitors. Julian also discusses the company's self-custody model and reports more than 100,000 users holding over 20,000 BTC in their own wallets—not under Relai management. The episode covers how a Bitcoin-only company can earn revenue through services around long-term ownership while keeping the savings proposition at the center.
Timestamps:
00:01 — Europe's Cost of Living Squeeze
03:11 — Why Europeans Still Don't Get Bitcoin
07:37 — High Time Preference & Get-Rich-Quick
10:31 — Bitcoin Needs Patience Again
10:54 — AI Hype vs Bitcoin as Savings
14:58 — Bitcoin Is Where You Keep Your Winnings
21:42 — Leverage, Treasury Cos & Risk
23:46 — Relai Private Loans in Europe
29:03 — MiCA: Overhead and Moat
33:11 — Bitcoin Savings vs Casino Exchanges
35:26 — 100k Users, 20k+ BTC Self-Custody
37:49 — Retail App vs Relai Private
40:00 — Self-Custody Phone Wallet
42:58 — Seven-Figure Raise in a Bear Market
45:12 — AI for Building and Securing Relai
50:00 — Living Costs Drive Bitcoin Search
Links: 
https://x.com/julian_liniger

https://x.com/relai_app

Stephan Livera links:
Follow me on X: @stephanlivera

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Bitcoin soft-fork debates around CTV, CSFS, OP_CAT, and OP_VAULT keep stalling — and Misha Komarov of Allocinit argues you can emulate much of that covenant behavior with cryptography instead of changing consensus.
Misha joins Stephan to unpack Bitcoin PIPEs v2: a Witness Encryption design that locks a signing key under an NP statement so a valid zero-knowledge proof decrypts the key and produces an ordinary Schnorr spend. Bitcoin L1 only checks a normal signature.
They compare PIPEs v1 (Functional Encryption / richer post-covenants) with v2 (Witness Encryption / binary pre-covenants), ciphertext sizes from ~300 TB toward single-digit terabytes, DKG and 1-of-n setup assumptions, non-custodial vault and shared-pool use cases, contrasts with cosigner models like Sigbash, and how Allocinit’s Shielded Bitcoin design differs from Shielded CSV’s client-side validation approach — plus open cryptanalysis challenges and a path toward implementable code.
Timestamps:
00:00 — Intro: Misha & Bitcoin PIPEs v2
00:27 — Background: BitMessage to =nil;
01:31 — Soft-Fork Fatigue & Nice-to-Haves
03:24 — Emulate Opcodes Without Soft Forks
04:54 — Witness Encryption Unlocks Keys
06:01 — Witness Encryption vs Bitcoin Witness
09:00 — PIPEs v1 vs v2: FE to WE
11:39 — Ciphertext Size & Cost Trade-offs
15:28 — Vaults as the Unhappy Path
16:23 — PIPEs vs Sigbash Cosigner
18:05 — DKG Setup & 1-of-n Trust
21:11 — Shared Vaults & Lending Use Cases
23:24 — Beyond Canonical OP_VAULT
26:35 — Shielded Bitcoin vs Shielded CSV
32:17 — Self-Custody Peg-In and Peg-Out
37:14 — On-Chain Footprint Walkthrough
39:42 — Security Challenges & Code Roadmap
Links: 
https://x.com/nemothenoone

https://x.com/allocinitxyz

Stephan Livera links:
Follow me on X: @stephanlivera

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