The Long Game with Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer

President Trump heads to Beijing for a high-stakes summit with Xi Jinping at a moment of growing instability in the Middle East and rising anxiety across Asia.

In this episode, former U.S. Deputy Secretary of State Kurt Campbell joins Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer to preview the summit and discuss:


Why China increasingly believes the United States is in decline


Xi Jinping’s read of Donald Trump


Whether Trump might shift U.S. policy on Taiwan or semiconductor export controls


How the Iran war is factoring into  China’s strategy 


What comes next in the U.S.-China competition

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video version of this episode on YouTube.

Transcript here.

Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.

REFERENCES & SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIALS:

“How China hopes to win from the war,” The Economist, April 1, 2026.

"The Stakes of Trump vs. Xi," Kurt Campbell, Foreign Affairs, May 2026.

“Xi Is Planning for China’s Final Victory Over the U.S.,” The New York Times, Julian Gerwirtz, May 13, 2026.

 “What a former CIA analyst reveals about a potential China fight,” Max Book Interview with John Culver, The Washington Post, May 11, 2026

“U.S. Intelligence Shows Iran Retains Substantial Missile Capabilities,” Adam Entous, Maggie Haberman, and Jonathan Swan, The New York Times, May 12, 2026.
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Iran war developments, including new signs of a potential deal, UAE’s withdrawal from OPEC, and what weeks of conflict have revealed about U.S. leverage.

In this episode, Jake Sullivan and Jon Finer discuss:

- Why a deal with Iran may be inevitable but harder to reach now

- How markets, military risks, and politics are shaping Trump’s strategy

- Warnings about depleted U.S. munitions 

- Why the UAE is leaving OPEC and what it says about tensions with Saudi Arabia

- A Red Team/Blue Team debate on in U.S. reducing troops in Europe

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode.

New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

Show notes are available here.

Transcript available here.

Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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Dan Wang, author of Breakneck, breaks down the divide between China’s “engineering state” and America’s “lawyerly society” and what that means for the future of U.S.-China competition.

Wang joined Jake and Jon before a live audience at the Endless Frontiers conference in Austin, Texas.

In this episode:

- Why China builds at scale and why the U.S. often struggles to keep up

- The strengths and limits of China’s model, from manufacturing to social policy

- A closer look at Xi Jinping’s leadership and decision-making

- Why “process knowledge” is key to rebuilding American capacity

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

Show notes are available here. Transcript coming soon.

Join us on Substack. Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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H.R. McMaster and Matt Pottinger, former National Security Adviser and Deputy National Security Adviser to President Trump in his first administration, join Jake and Jon for a wide-ranging conversation on Iran, China, and how national security decisions get made at the highest level.

Drawing on their time in the White House, they debate the decision to go to war with Iran, the nature of Iran’s nuclear program, and what a successful outcome would even look like. As McMaster puts it, “a lot of times you’re looking at the least bad option.”

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. 

New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

Show notes are available here.

Transcript coming soon.

Join us on Substack.

Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.
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Former Secretary of State John Kerry, who has spent more time negotiating with Iranian leaders than anyone, joins Jake and Jon to discuss the marathon diplomacy efforts that resulted in the JCPOA, Trump’s decision to strike Iran, the likelihood of a deal, the prospects for a two state solution between Israel and Palestinians, and the future of the U.S.-Israel relationship. Then, Jake and Jon discuss Prime Minister Viktor Orban’s surprising defeat in Hungary’s election and what his loss means for the MAGA movement, Trump’s relationship to Europe’s far right, and Ukraine.  

Follow The Long Game so you never miss an episode. New episodes drop weekly.

Watch the video of this episode on YouTube.

For show notes and transcripts, find and follow us on Substack.

Email Jake and Jon at [email protected].

The Long Game is produced by the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Photo credit: Thomas Imo/Photothek via Getty Images
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