Draft Zero: a screenwriting podcast

Listen to learn how to control your audience’s perception of your character arcs.

In our fourth entry into our series on character arcs, we explore both what makes an audience perceive a character arc to be “negative” AND separately what makes the audience feel negative about a character arc. The individual arc, as Chas puts it, is only one lever.

We dive into BACKROOMS, IF I HAD LEGS I’D KICK YOU and ANATOMY OF A FALL, further developing craft tools we’ve looked at earlier in the series - repeated character beats, emotional events, operant conditioning - as well exploring newer ones in more depth, such as relationship questions and symbolism.

And the tool we crystallise the most this episode is the relationship question — a sibling to plot, character, and thematic questions. Ask it and you often find the arc the film wants you to notice isn't the main character's at all. In ANATOMY OF A FALL the ostensible lead is Sandra, on trial for her husband's death — but the arc that is the most developed (and the most negative) most belongs to Daniel, the son, forced onto the trial stand to choose a truth.

We also talk BLUE MOON, GOODFELLAS, SCARFACE, EMILY THE CRIMINAL, WOLF OF WALL STREET, REVENGE OF THE SITH, SAINT OMER, BLADE RUNNER 2049, APOLLO 13, and whether blood-splatter analysis still counts as evidence anywhere.

As always: SPOILERS ABOUND and all copyright material used under fair use for educational purposes.

LIKE THIS EPISODE?

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Send us feedback.

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Thanks to our Patrons, especially Khrob, Theis, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paulo, Thomas, Jennifer, Malay, Alexandre & Natalie and Lily.

→ Read the transcript for this episode.

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"There's a difference between a character arc being negative and an audience feeling negative about the arc." — Chas Fisher @ 00:02:33

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CHAPTERS

00:00:00 – Cold Open

00:00:27 – Negative Arc vs Negative Audience Feeling

00:03:18 – › Distinguishing character shift, world reward, and audience experience

00:09:58 – › Why these three films resist a classic tragedy template

00:10:03 – The Relationship Question as a Craft Tool

00:11:11 – BACKROOMS

00:16:56 – › Clark's steadfast refusal disguised as trying to change

00:21:14 – › Repeated role-play beat as evidence of change or relief

00:26:31 – › Symbolism of loops and liminal space as character state

00:34:22 – › Decoupling character change from audience emotional change

00:44:09 – › Mary's window metaphor and inherited trauma

00:50:02 – › How operant conditioning punishes both leads

00:54:11 – IF I HAD LEGS I'D KICK YOU

00:58:45 – › Spiral structure and the illusion of available choices

01:06:00 – › Agency versus repeated impossible choices

01:12:21 – › Scripted imagery of the hole as inescapable metaphor

01:16:01 – › Authenticity of experience versus stylized horror world-building

01:18:49 – › Climax as abandonment, baptism, and ambiguous reward

01:26:11 – › Supporting relationships mirroring the protagonist's decline

01:33:46 – ANATOMY OF A FALL

01:39:24 – › Six competing explanations and the choice Daniel must make

01:45:59 – › The marriage itself as the film's true negative arc

01:51:14 – › Sandra's steadfastness and refusal to manage perception

01:58:49 – › Daniel and Sandra's relationship fractured by testimony

02:09:34 – › Acquittal as subtraction rather than reward

02:16:21 – Key Learnings & Wrap Up

02:21:46 – Thanks to our Patreons!

FILMS

BACKROOMS (2026) — (w) Will Soodik (d) Kane Parsons

IF I HAD LEGS I'D KICK YOU (2025) — (w) Mary Bronstein

ANATOMY OF A FALL (2023) — (w) Arthur Harari, Justine Triet (d) Justine Triet

SCRIPTS

Study the script: ANATOMY OF A FALL (2023) — Arthur Harari, Justine Triet

EPISODES IN THE CHARACTER ARCS SERIES

DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?

DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change

DZ-130: Positive Character Arcs

DZ-131: Negative Character Arcs vs Negative Feelings

RELATED EPISODES

DZ-108: The Emotional Event with Judith Weston

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More Draft Zero is brought to you by our awesome Patreons.

If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or a review on Podchaser.

We are @stuwillis, @mehlsbells and @chasffisher on Twitter. You can find @draft_zero and @_shotzero on Instagram and Twitter.

Full show notes at: https://draft-zero.com/2026/dz-131/

Teaser for our next episode: DZ-131. Please watch BACKROOMS, IF I HAD LEGS I'D KICK YOU, and ANATOMY OF A FALL.

Listen to understand how to dramatize a character's internal change.

Welcome to our third entry in our character arc series; and the first where we talk about characters that actually change. And positively, too.

We deep dive into BARBIE, WIDOWS and ALL OF US STRANGERS to work out what makes an arc feel positive -- even if the film itself is heartbreaking. All three films are "positive arcs" that feel wildly different. We speculate whether that's due to the nature of the relationship questions, the use of additive/subtractive rewards; and whether it's do with the connection of the characters needs and their goals.

We further crystalize two tools we've been kicking around:

The relationship question — take a character question ("will she learn to connect?") and pose it as a relationship problem ("will these two grow closer or further apart?").

Additive vs subtractive rewards — We continue buildling on this idea from our Steadfast episodes. Does the story give the character something or take something away? And is that a good or a bad thing?

And Mel brings up a third:

Repeating a beat from a different angle so we can trace a character's gradual evolution.

We also debate whether Barbie's void scene is a producer's note personified — a director going into the endless nothing to spell the themes out one more time.

All this and more on DZ-130!

As always: SPOILERS ABOUND and all copyright material used under fair use for educational purposes.

LIKE THIS EPISODE?

Watch and comment on YouTube.

Send us feedback.

Send us a voice message via Speakpipe!

Thanks to our Patrons, especially Khrob, Theis, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paulo, Thomas, Jennifer, Malay, Alexandre & Natalie and Lily.

→ Read the transcript for this episode.

———

"A relationship question is taking what we think is an internal question about a character and defining it in terms of the relationship. Will Moana grow closer to their village coming back or will they'll grow further apart?" — Stu Willis @ 00:06:09

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CHAPTERS

00:00:00 – Cold Open

00:00:21 – Positive Character Arcs

00:04:47 – › Relationship questions as the key to dramatizing arcs

00:09:00 – Followup Questions

00:12:12 – Zero Context Insights

00:13:01 – BARBIE

00:17:16 – › The void scene with Barbie's creator

00:23:13 – › Immortality versus death as the real choice

00:27:02 – › Debating the lie the character believes

00:44:26 – › Gain versus loss framing the ending

00:52:34 – › Contrast and affinity

00:59:47 – WIDOWS

01:05:47 – › Establishing character patterns before the heist begins

01:09:37 – › Do the widows have values before the story starts

01:18:42 – › Skills and goals tightly tied to character growth

01:21:04 – › Alice's escalating value shift through the sugar daddy scene

01:25:04 – › Linda's grief scene and steadfast versus positive arcs

01:27:12 – › Veronica's arc through Harry's betrayal and revenge

01:39:33 – › Comparing ensemble arcs to OCEAN'S ELEVEN and THE TOWN

01:46:46 – › Relationship questions as emotional engine of ensemble films

01:49:36 – ALL OF US STRANGERS

01:55:38 – › Rebuffing Harry sets up the positive arc

02:02:15 – › Isolation to connectedness as the emotional throughline

02:07:24 – › Contrasting coming out scenes with mom and dad

02:11:26 – › The low point as emotional violence not distance

02:18:48 – › Dream logic and touch as physical arc tracking

02:23:20 – Key Learnings & Wrap Up

02:26:20 – › Additive versus subtractive rewards in character arcs

02:29:58 – › Patreon shoutouts and next episode preview

FILMS

BARBIE (2023) — (w) Noah Baumbach, Greta Gerwig (d) Greta Gerwig

WIDOWS (2018) — (w) Gillian Flynn, Steve Mcqueen (d) Steve Mcqueen

ALL OF US STRANGERS (2023) — (w) Andrew Haigh, Taichi Yamada (d) Andrew Haigh

SCRIPTS

Study the script: BARBIE (2023) — Noah Baumbach, Greta Gerwig

Study the script: ALL OF US STRANGERS (2023) — Andrew Haigh, Taichi Yamada

SHOT ZERO DEEP DIVES

What You Don't See: WIDOWS

Frames within Frames: ALL OF US STRANGERS

LINKS

Read: Colour Theory: DESERT HEARTS

Read: Greta Gerwig Explains What Barbie's Bench Scene Really Means

EPISODES IN THE CHARACTER ARCS SERIES

DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?

DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change

DZ-130: Positive Character Arcs

RELATED EPISODES

DZ-108: The Emotional Event with Judith Weston

DZ-112: Breaking the 4th wall

DZ-113: Tools For Filmmakers To Talk To The Audience

———

More Draft Zero is brought to you by our awesome Patreons.

If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or a review on Podchaser.

We are @stuwillis, @mehlsbells and @chasffisher on Twitter. You can find @draft_zero and @_shotzero on Instagram and Twitter.

Full show notes at: https://draft-zero.com/2026/dz-130/

Teaser for our next episode: DZ-130. Please watch BARBIE, WIDOWS, and ALL OF US STRANGERS so you can learn about positive character arcs.

Listen to learn how to move an audience with a character who never changes.

Do characters need to change for you to have a satisfying story? That's a question we've been asking since, like, episode five of this podcast. And we're finally talking about them - whatever you call 'em: steadfast, resilent, or flat arcs.

To that end, we breakdown MOANA, APOLLO 13, and THE DRESSMAKER to work out what carries a story when a character arc doesn't. If your protagonist isn't going to change, the drama has to come from what they do to everyone else.

We develop some tools that we reckon carry a steadfast story:

doubt and wobble (a character with no doubt isn't steadfast, they're a psychopath)

emotional events between characters

additive rewards (something is gained) versus subtractive ones (something is taken away) - a distinction we've borrowed borrowed from operant conditioning;

and how that difference changes the emotional tone of an ending.

The subtractive reward is why a happy ending can still feel like loss... and it's the thing we reckon that'll matter most when we get to negative arcs.

Chas, Mel and Stu also wibble-wobble over WILLOW, TAKEN, FERRIS BUELLER'S DAY OFF, THE MARTIAN, PROJECT HAIL MARY, THE GREY, ALL IS LOST, STAR WARS (as always), GREY GARDENS, PRISCILLA, and how many tampons NASA sent to space.

As always: SPOILERS ABOUND and all copyright material used under fair use for educational purposes.

LIKE THIS EPISODE?

Discuss with our Patrons on Patreon.

Join the discussion on Reddit.

Watch and comment on YouTube.

Send us feedback.

Send us a voice message via Speakpipe!

Thanks to our Patrons, especially Khrob, Theis, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paulo, Thomas, Jennifer, Malay, Alexandre & Natalie and Lily.

→ Read the transcript for this episode.

———

"If your characters are not going to arc, if they are going to remain steadfast, then creating multiple smaller emotional events is really important to keep the story dynamic." — Mel Killingsworth @ 02:32:01

———

CHAPTERS

00:00:00 – Cold Open

00:00:18 – What Is a Steadfast Character Arc?

00:04:24 – › Character as habitual action defines change

00:06:11 – › Operant conditioning reframes reward and punishment beats

00:09:14 – › Steadfast characters still need emotional stakes and impact

00:10:33 – The Questionnaire for Analysing Character Arcs

00:12:18 – MOANA

00:16:12 – › The I Want song and being pulled versus pushed

00:18:19 – › Doubt as necessary proof of steadfast resilience

00:26:54 – › Distinguishing upskilling and reward from true character change

00:27:25 – › Maui's full arc contrasts with Moana's steadfastness

00:41:15 – › Genre expectations teach the audience to predict steadfastness

00:45:10 – › Tracking Maui's and Moana's dramatized moments of change

00:53:08 – APOLLO 13

00:58:52 – › Riveting problem solving without character values changing

01:01:07 – › Jim and jack relationship as substitute emotional arc

01:12:12 – › Comparing disaster films that punish or reward steadfastness

01:20:02 – › Working through the arc questionnaire for the film

01:33:53 – THE DRESSMAKER

01:38:14 – › Debating whether THE DRESSMAKER is steadfast or positive

01:44:54 – › Tracking Tilly's three objectives and mystery of the curse

01:50:37 – › Teddy's death as subtractive reward and negative punishment

01:57:00 – › GREY GARDENS parallels and the town as social environment

02:03:10 – › How Tilly's steadfastness transforms the town around her

02:16:37 – › Testing audience expectations for change versus subversion

02:24:48 – › Values of beauty, love, and vengeance in the story world

02:31:45 – Key Learnings & Wrap Up

FILMS

MOANA (2016) — (w) Jared Bush, Ron Clements, John Musker, Chris Williams, Don Hall, Pamela Ribon, Aaron Kandell, Jordan Kandell (d) John Musker, Ron Clements

THE DRESSMAKER (2015) — (w) Jocelyn Moorhouse, Pj Hogan, Rosalie Ham (d) Jocelyn Moorhouse

APOLLO 13 (1995) — (w) William Broyles Jr, Al Reinert, Jeffrey Kluger, Jim Lovell (d) Ron Howard

EPISODES IN THE CHARACTER ARCS SERIES

DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?

DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change

DZ-130: Positive Character Arcs

RELATED EPISODES

DZ-108: The Emotional Event with Judith Weston

DZ-126: Secrets and Clues

DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?

———

More Draft Zero is brought to you by our awesome Patreons.

If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or a review on Podchaser.

We are @stuwillis, @mehlsbells and @chasffisher on Twitter. You can find @draft_zero and @_shotzero on Instagram and Twitter.

Full show notes at: https://draft-zero.com/2026/dz-129/