Draft Zero: a screenwriting podcast

Listen to understand how to dramatize a character's internal change.

Welcome to our third entry in our character arc series; and the first where we talk about characters that actually change. And positively, too.

We deep dive into BARBIE, WIDOWS and ALL OF US STRANGERS to work out what makes an arc feel positive -- even if the film itself is heartbreaking. All three films are "positive arcs" that feel wildly different. We speculate whether that's due to the nature of the relationship questions, the use of additive/subtractive rewards; and whether it's do with the connection of the characters needs and their goals.

We further crystalize two tools we've been kicking around:

The relationship question — take a character question ("will she learn to connect?") and pose it as a relationship problem ("will these two grow closer or further apart?").

Additive vs subtractive rewards — We continue buildling on this idea from our Steadfast episodes. Does the story give the character something or take something away? And is that a good or a bad thing?

And Mel brings up a third:

Repeating a beat from a different angle so we can trace a character's gradual evolution.

We also debate whether Barbie's void scene is a producer's note personified — a director going into the endless nothing to spell the themes out one more time.

All this and more on DZ-130!

As always: SPOILERS ABOUND and all copyright material used under fair use for educational purposes.

LIKE THIS EPISODE?

Watch and comment on YouTube.

Send us feedback.

Send us a voice message via Speakpipe!

Thanks to our Patrons, especially Khrob, Theis, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paulo, Thomas, Jennifer, Malay, Alexandre & Natalie and Lily.

→ Read the transcript for this episode.

———

"A relationship question is taking what we think is an internal question about a character and defining it in terms of the relationship. Will Moana grow closer to their village coming back or will they'll grow further apart?" — Stu Willis @ 00:06:09

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CHAPTERS

00:00:00 – Cold Open

00:00:21 – Positive Character Arcs

00:04:47 – › Relationship questions as the key to dramatizing arcs

00:09:00 – Followup Questions

00:12:12 – Zero Context Insights

00:13:01 – BARBIE

00:17:16 – › The void scene with Barbie's creator

00:23:13 – › Immortality versus death as the real choice

00:27:02 – › Debating the lie the character believes

00:44:26 – › Gain versus loss framing the ending

00:52:34 – › Contrast and affinity

00:59:47 – WIDOWS

01:05:47 – › Establishing character patterns before the heist begins

01:09:37 – › Do the widows have values before the story starts

01:18:42 – › Skills and goals tightly tied to character growth

01:21:04 – › Alice's escalating value shift through the sugar daddy scene

01:25:04 – › Linda's grief scene and steadfast versus positive arcs

01:27:12 – › Veronica's arc through Harry's betrayal and revenge

01:39:33 – › Comparing ensemble arcs to OCEAN'S ELEVEN and THE TOWN

01:46:46 – › Relationship questions as emotional engine of ensemble films

01:49:36 – ALL OF US STRANGERS

01:55:38 – › Rebuffing Harry sets up the positive arc

02:02:15 – › Isolation to connectedness as the emotional throughline

02:07:24 – › Contrasting coming out scenes with mom and dad

02:11:26 – › The low point as emotional violence not distance

02:18:48 – › Dream logic and touch as physical arc tracking

02:23:20 – Key Learnings & Wrap Up

02:26:20 – › Additive versus subtractive rewards in character arcs

02:29:58 – › Patreon shoutouts and next episode preview

FILMS

BARBIE (2023) — (w) Noah Baumbach, Greta Gerwig (d) Greta Gerwig

WIDOWS (2018) — (w) Gillian Flynn, Steve Mcqueen (d) Steve Mcqueen

ALL OF US STRANGERS (2023) — (w) Andrew Haigh, Taichi Yamada (d) Andrew Haigh

SCRIPTS

Study the script: BARBIE (2023) — Noah Baumbach, Greta Gerwig

Study the script: ALL OF US STRANGERS (2023) — Andrew Haigh, Taichi Yamada

SHOT ZERO DEEP DIVES

What You Don't See: WIDOWS

Frames within Frames: ALL OF US STRANGERS

LINKS

Read: Colour Theory: DESERT HEARTS

Read: Greta Gerwig Explains What Barbie's Bench Scene Really Means

EPISODES IN THE CHARACTER ARCS SERIES

DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?

DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change

DZ-130: Positive Character Arcs

RELATED EPISODES

DZ-108: The Emotional Event with Judith Weston

DZ-112: Breaking the 4th wall

DZ-113: Tools For Filmmakers To Talk To The Audience

———

More Draft Zero is brought to you by our awesome Patreons.

If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or a review on Podchaser.

We are @stuwillis, @mehlsbells and @chasffisher on Twitter. You can find @draft_zero and @_shotzero on Instagram and Twitter.

Full show notes at: https://draft-zero.com/2026/dz-130/

Teaser for our next episode: DZ-130. Please watch BARBIE, WIDOWS, and ALL OF US STRANGERS so you can learn about positive character arcs.

Listen to learn how to move an audience with a character who never changes.

Do characters need to change for you to have a satisfying story? That's a question we've been asking since, like, episode five of this podcast. And we're finally talking about them - whatever you call 'em: steadfast, resilent, or flat arcs.

To that end, we breakdown MOANA, APOLLO 13, and THE DRESSMAKER to work out what carries a story when a character arc doesn't. If your protagonist isn't going to change, the drama has to come from what they do to everyone else.

We develop some tools that we reckon carry a steadfast story:

doubt and wobble (a character with no doubt isn't steadfast, they're a psychopath)

emotional events between characters

additive rewards (something is gained) versus subtractive ones (something is taken away) - a distinction we've borrowed borrowed from operant conditioning;

and how that difference changes the emotional tone of an ending.

The subtractive reward is why a happy ending can still feel like loss... and it's the thing we reckon that'll matter most when we get to negative arcs.

Chas, Mel and Stu also wibble-wobble over WILLOW, TAKEN, FERRIS BUELLER'S DAY OFF, THE MARTIAN, PROJECT HAIL MARY, THE GREY, ALL IS LOST, STAR WARS (as always), GREY GARDENS, PRISCILLA, and how many tampons NASA sent to space.

As always: SPOILERS ABOUND and all copyright material used under fair use for educational purposes.

LIKE THIS EPISODE?

Discuss with our Patrons on Patreon.

Join the discussion on Reddit.

Watch and comment on YouTube.

Send us feedback.

Send us a voice message via Speakpipe!

Thanks to our Patrons, especially Khrob, Theis, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paulo, Thomas, Jennifer, Malay, Alexandre & Natalie and Lily.

→ Read the transcript for this episode.

———

"If your characters are not going to arc, if they are going to remain steadfast, then creating multiple smaller emotional events is really important to keep the story dynamic." — Mel Killingsworth @ 02:32:01

———

CHAPTERS

00:00:00 – Cold Open

00:00:18 – What Is a Steadfast Character Arc?

00:04:24 – › Character as habitual action defines change

00:06:11 – › Operant conditioning reframes reward and punishment beats

00:09:14 – › Steadfast characters still need emotional stakes and impact

00:10:33 – The Questionnaire for Analysing Character Arcs

00:12:18 – MOANA

00:16:12 – › The I Want song and being pulled versus pushed

00:18:19 – › Doubt as necessary proof of steadfast resilience

00:26:54 – › Distinguishing upskilling and reward from true character change

00:27:25 – › Maui's full arc contrasts with Moana's steadfastness

00:41:15 – › Genre expectations teach the audience to predict steadfastness

00:45:10 – › Tracking Maui's and Moana's dramatized moments of change

00:53:08 – APOLLO 13

00:58:52 – › Riveting problem solving without character values changing

01:01:07 – › Jim and jack relationship as substitute emotional arc

01:12:12 – › Comparing disaster films that punish or reward steadfastness

01:20:02 – › Working through the arc questionnaire for the film

01:33:53 – THE DRESSMAKER

01:38:14 – › Debating whether THE DRESSMAKER is steadfast or positive

01:44:54 – › Tracking Tilly's three objectives and mystery of the curse

01:50:37 – › Teddy's death as subtractive reward and negative punishment

01:57:00 – › GREY GARDENS parallels and the town as social environment

02:03:10 – › How Tilly's steadfastness transforms the town around her

02:16:37 – › Testing audience expectations for change versus subversion

02:24:48 – › Values of beauty, love, and vengeance in the story world

02:31:45 – Key Learnings & Wrap Up

FILMS

MOANA (2016) — (w) Jared Bush, Ron Clements, John Musker, Chris Williams, Don Hall, Pamela Ribon, Aaron Kandell, Jordan Kandell (d) John Musker, Ron Clements

THE DRESSMAKER (2015) — (w) Jocelyn Moorhouse, Pj Hogan, Rosalie Ham (d) Jocelyn Moorhouse

APOLLO 13 (1995) — (w) William Broyles Jr, Al Reinert, Jeffrey Kluger, Jim Lovell (d) Ron Howard

EPISODES IN THE CHARACTER ARCS SERIES

DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?

DZ-129: Steadfast Character Arcs - Agents of Change

DZ-130: Positive Character Arcs

RELATED EPISODES

DZ-108: The Emotional Event with Judith Weston

DZ-126: Secrets and Clues

DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?

———

More Draft Zero is brought to you by our awesome Patreons.

If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or a review on Podchaser.

We are @stuwillis, @mehlsbells and @chasffisher on Twitter. You can find @draft_zero and @_shotzero on Instagram and Twitter.

Full show notes at: https://draft-zero.com/2026/dz-129/

Listen to separate the three layers of an arc -- does the character change? How do they feel about it? And how is the audience positioned to feel about it?

Stu, Chas and Mel finally begin their long-awaited journey into CHARACTER ARCS. In this "primer" episode, we try find some learnings and analytical lenses that we can then apply in future breakdowns.

In this episode, we explore differences between a character learning something and a character fundamentally changing, how to dramatise that, and how the show teaches the audience to perceive that transformation (whether positively or negatively).

Throughout the discussion, we skate over A NEW HOPE, BLUE MOON, BREAKING BAD, BETTER CALL SAUL, the French real-time thriller FULL TIME, A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS, THE GREEN KNIGHT, ALL OF US STRANGERS, PREDATOR BADLANDS, FIELD OF DREAMS, MEG 2, and Stu's receding hairline.

Ultimately, this discussion synthesises into a series of questions to ask of a story and the main point-of-view character living through that story:

Does the audience enter the story with an expectation that characters will change?

How does the story teach the audience to expect characters to change or not?

Do the characters change? Is it experiential change or internal value change? How is that dramatised?

Is the character aware that they changed? How do they feel about that change? Does that matter?

How does the story want the audience to feel about that change? If different to the character’s perception, how does the story pull that off?

How does the story world punish or reward the change?

What are the values explored by the arc? How does this relate to the theme?

How is contrast vs affinity/unity portrayed through the characters’ journey? Order vs disorder vs inertia

What is the emotional event created between the character and audience as a result of the journey? Does the character end up more intimate or distant from the audience?

In upcoming episodes, we intend to apply these lenses to stories with STEADFAST/RESILIENT arcs, POSITIVE arcs, NEGATIVE arcs and - potentially - a “WTF is this?!” arc.

Please check out our homework discussion on Patreon. And if you want to vote on the stories we're gonna breakdown, sign up!

As always: SPOILERS ABOUND and all copyright material used under fair use for educational purposes.

LIKE THIS EPISODE?

Discuss with our Patrons on Patreon.

Join the discussion on Reddit.

Watch and comment on YouTube.

Send us feedback.

Thanks to our Patrons, especially Khrob, Theis, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paulo, Thomas, Jennifer, Malay, Alexandre & Natalie and Lily.

→ Read the transcript for this episode.

———

"Character arcs are really difficult to talk about because they're not just in isolation. Rarely is a film only about one character, right? So we're actually talking about how we harmonize other characters around them." — Stu Willis @ 00:12:16

———

CHAPTERS

00:00:00 – Cold Open

00:00:17 – Character Arcs: A Primer on What We're Really Asking

00:03:13 – › Three layers of an arc: character, self-perception, audience

00:07:04 – › The four-quadrant map: change, no change, better, worse

00:10:15 – › Why calling it an arc is already a misnomer

00:13:35 – What We Each Want to Learn from This Series

00:19:56 – › Whether emotional authenticity is becoming more valuable than spectacle

00:23:37 – › Why stories let us safely inhabit experiences outside our own

00:30:04 – The Deep Question: Can Characters Actually Change?

00:35:49 – › Contrast and affinity as the design logic of transformation

00:41:40 – › The rock metaphor: external forces versus intrinsic change

00:46:43 – › Order, disorder, and inertia as the spectrum of arc types

00:50:29 – Three Layers of Judgment: Character, World, and Audience

00:56:45 – › How the filmmaker positions the audience relative to the character

01:00:01 – › Do audiences enter stories expecting change at all?

01:06:09 – › Mapping the inner journey against plot beats

01:09:28 – › Why low points exist to make the climax feel earned

01:12:09 – Key Learnings & Wrap Up

01:26:47 – Thanks to Our Patreons!

FILMS

STAR WARS (1977) — (w) George Lucas

SHOWS

A KNIGHT OF THE SEVEN KINGDOMS — (w) George Rr Martin, Ira Parker

BETTER CALL SAUL — (w) Vince Gilligan, Peter Gould

BREAKING BAD — (w) Vince Gilligan

LINKS

Website: Bruce Block's The Visual Story

EPISODES IN THE CHARACTER ARCS SERIES

DZ-128: What even is a Character Arc?

RELATED EPISODES

DZ-04: Catharsis and the Post-Coital Cigarette

DZ-108: The Emotional Event with Judith Weston

———

More Draft Zero is brought to you by our awesome Patreons.

If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or a review on Podchaser.

We are @stuwillis, @mehlsbells and @chasffisher on Twitter. You can find @draft_zero and @_shotzero on Instagram and Twitter.

Full show notes at: https://draft-zero.com/2026/dz-128/

Listen to learn the emotional impact of revealing secrets vs discovering them.

In this episode Stu, Chas and Mel apply the Landmark–Hidden–Secret framework (from DZ-126) across two very different genres: the thriller SIDE EFFECTS (2013) and the tragicomic pilot of SHRINKING.

SIDE EFFECTS is a film of two genres. The first half plays as a drama about depression and over-medication; the second half is a 90s thriller. We talk about how every time Dr Jonathan Banks uncovers a new piece of information, it puts him in danger — and that danger motivates him to uncover more.

In SHRINKING, we see a different use of the framework. "What are psychologists but detectives of the mind?" Rather than the cost of finding secrets, it's about the cost of sharing them. Chas also comes out of this with a paradigm he's been building toward (but we're keeping what that is secret until you listen!)

And inevitably we go on some tangents: whether SIDE EFFECTS should even have been an erotic thriller!

As always: SPOILERS ABOUND and all copyright material used under fair use for educational purposes.

LIKE THIS EPISODE?

Discuss with our Patrons on Patreon.

Join the discussion on Reddit.

Watch and comment on YouTube.

Send us feedback.

Thanks to our Patrons, especially Khrob, Theis, Sandra, Jesse, Randy, Paulo, Thomas, Jennifer, Malay, Alexandre and Lily.

→ Read the transcript for this episode.

———

"Every time Dr Jonathan Banks uncovers a new piece of information, it puts him in danger -- and that danger motivates him to uncover more." — Chas Fisher @ 00:26:04

———

CHAPTERS

00:00:00 – Cold Open

00:00:16 – Intro: Secrets and Clues 2 - the Cost of Revelation

00:01:03 – Previously on Secrets and Clues (Recap of Part 1)

00:04:24 – Flashforward Insights

00:09:29 – SIDE EFFECTS

00:20:18 – › The First Half: Push and Misdirection

00:28:41 – › Genre Shift: Banks Becomes the Detective

00:48:06 – SHRINKING

01:00:02 – › The Inverted Paradigm: When Everyone Knows

01:07:47 – › The Cost of Sharing

01:22:02 – › Power Through Honest Acknowledgement

01:35:37 – The Key Tool Chas Learned

01:39:28 – Key Learnings & Wrap Up

01:50:48 – Many Thanks to our Patrons!

FILMS

SIDE EFFECTS (2013) — (w) Scott Z Burns (d) Steven Soderbergh

SHOWS

SHRINKING — (w) Brett Goldstein, Jason Segel, Bill Lawrence

SCRIPTS

Study the script: SIDE EFFECTS (2013) — Scott Z Burns

LINKS

Website: DIY & dragons: Landmark, Hidden, Secret

Website: The Alexandrian » Advanced Node-Based Design

Website: Ascii Dreams: The Quest for Quests (Part One)

Website: Ascii Dreams: The Quest for Quests (Part Two)

EPISODES IN THE SECRETS AND CLUES SERIES

DZ-126: Secrets and Clues

DZ-127: Secrets and Clues 2 - The Cost of Revelation

RELATED EPISODES

DZ-90: Setups & Payoffs in EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL AT ONCE

———

More Draft Zero is brought to you by our awesome Patreons.

If you enjoy the show, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, a rating on Spotify, or a review on Podchaser.

We are @stuwillis, @mehlsbells and @chasffisher on Twitter. You can find @draft_zero and @_shotzero on Instagram and Twitter.

Full show notes at: https://draft-zero.com/2026/dz-127/