The Burnt Toast Podcast

You're listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today my conversation is with the brilliant Savala Nolan.
Savala is a writer, public speaker and professor at UC Berkeley. Her brand new book, Good Woman: A Reckoning is out now. 
Her first book, Don’t Let It Get You Down: Essays on Race, Gender and the Body, was shortlisted for the William Saroyan Prize and celebrated as a “standout collection” by the New York Times. Savala's writing has been featured in Vogue, Harper’s Magazine, the New York Times, NPR, TIME and more.
I have a lot of conversations about bodies. I have a lot of conversations about gender. There is a lot that I thought I knew about race and bodies and gender in America. Reading Good Woman and talking to Savala blew my mind apart in ways that I'm still putting back together. 
This conversation is a must listen. This book is a must read.
There was so much good stuff in this conversation, we are breaking it up into two episodes. Today in part one, we’re talking about bodies, race and gender. Part two will drop in two weeks, and that's when we're getting into sex, divorce and Savala’s classy and trashy butters. That conversation will be for paid subscribers only, so go to patreon.com/virginiasolesmith to join us. Membership starts at just $5 per month. You're not going to want to miss this one.
One last thing! Trust me, you will want to read Good Woman after hearing this conversation. If you order it from my local independent bookstore, Split Rock Books, you can take 10% off if you have also ordered a copy of my book Fat Talk from them. Go to Split Rock Books and use the code "fat talk" at checkout.
Here's Savala.
If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!
Join Burnt Toast
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Episode 235 Transcript
Virginia
Why don't we just start by having you tell listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Savala  
I'm a writer. I was thinking about this question quite a bit, actually, because my very first instinct is to say I'm a mom, which makes perfect sense. Motherhood is all consuming. But I thought I'll start with something that doesn't include my relationship with another human being, just in the interest of practicing my own wholeness.
So, I'm a writer and a mom and a lawyer. I direct the social justice program at UC Berkeley's Law School, which is really a privilege and gives me a lot of hope, because I get to see hundreds of law students every day who want to change the world and make it better. 
I'm also a former dieter. Like a hardcore, former dieter, which is what initially brought me into your world and your work. I was put on my first diet when I was two or three, and rode those waves up and down until I was maybe 36 or 37, so I've got a few decades under my belt.
I include that in my biography because that experience of going on and off diets for so long, and of being almost pre-verbal when I was indoctrinated into that world of dieting, informs a lot of what I do, including as a mom, including as a lawyer, including as a writer. Body liberation, gender and race, they fascinate me endlessly, how they play together and kind of co-create each other. Most of what I write about, and definitely what I write about in Good Woman, stems from that experience of dieting, and then breaking free from dieting in my thirties.
Virginia  
That is the best intro I think anyone's ever given themselves on the podcast. 
Savala
Oh, stop. 
Virginia
No, really. I love that you are like, 'Let me own this part of my story. This is the origin point. And then now let's get into the conversation.' That's fantastic. 
We are here to talk about your exquisite new book Good Woman: A Reckoning. It is a collection of 12 essays about what it means to be a woman. It's this incredible blend of memoir, reporting and history. I would love you to read us the first paragraph, just to set the stage for everything we're going to talk about.
Savala
I'll just take a quick second to set it up a little bit.
I'm trying to take a critical and very skeptical eye to all the ways that women and girls are socialized to be good. Almost from birth, right? In our particular culture, good means agreeable, quiet, serving of others, all the things that probably would pop into any woman's head when she hears the idea of a "good woman" or a "good girl." I'm trying to unpack and destroy some of that socialization in my own life, and think about what lies beyond it. To kick the book off, there's this very short essay that's sort of a manifesto. I think of it as a huge bell that rings to open the book.
Here's the first paragraph.
I refuse to be good. This is a matter of survival, not inclination or mood. I refuse to be easy and I refuse others preferences. I refuse to be amicable and I refuse to appease. I refuse to go along and I refuse to agree. I refuse to do what I was trained to do. Instead, I choose whatever lies beyond my social conditioning, even if I'm still looking for it, still spurring it into being. This is work of the mind, cerebral and tough. This is work of new language, new concepts, new intonations and my thinking must expand to fit the scale of all existence. It is also body work, work that is nailed to my flesh. It is gestating of new bones, an anointing of muscle and fat. It is passing through the stomatous black opening of my own cervix to the bright field, waiting on the other side in the wilderness. It is a lot to take on. But I welcome the challenge and the mystery and the darkness. It was in darkness that the universe was made. It is in darkness that each day is made new.
Virginia  
Thank you. That was incredible. Really, it was.
Savala
Thank you. 
Virginia  
I loved how you opened the book because it encapsulates so many of the themes that you then go deeper in in every chapter. One of the biggest themes of refusal in the book is around the body. You write about how Black women's bodies in particular are constrained, controlled and made not their own. I really, really want people to read this because we don't have time to talk about all the history you go through and it's so well done. You trace this narrative from Sarah Baartman and Sally Hemings all the way to Nicki Minaj, connecting so many dots. It's really powerful. What has and what hasn't changed when it comes to how Blackness and fatness are policed for women?
Savala  
I love this question. We could probably write a doctoral thesis or dissertation on this question alone. So I'll just sort of share what comes to mind, a sort of smorgasbord of thoughts that come to mind when you ask this question. 
The first thing is, there's an overlap when we talk about Blackness and fatness in this culture. The very first point to make is that everything here is cultural. Not all cultures treat women's bodies, Blackness and fatness the way we do. That's the page on which everything else is written. 
It's interesting to me that when we talk about Blackness and fatness, the stereotypes overlap, right? Both fat people and Black people are viewed in this culture as out of control, lazy, kind of greedy, having a hyper appetite. Either being hyper-sexualized or de-sexualized. You either have the kind of va-va-voom, or the 'friend, never the leading lady' when it comes to fatness. With Blackness, it's the same thing. You either have the video vixen - this kind of hyper-sexual Black woman in a music video - or the mammy.
It's interesting to me that the stereotypes overlap so much, and maybe the most powerful way they overlap is that they're both undesirable. They're both things in our culture that you should try to get away from if you can. You should try not to be too Black or too fat in our culture. So to me, as a woman who's fat and Black, it's kind of a one-two punch. They work together. The stereotypes overlapping tells you there's some relationship in our culture between these two things. And as you say, it goes way, way, way, way back in this country. It goes to chattel slavery, where Blackness and fatness started to be policed together and associated together, very literally.
I talk about this in the book - there's a magazine called Godey's Lady's Book, which you might consider the Vogue or Good Housekeeping of today. Sort of fashion, but also home-y stuff. It was the biggest magazine in the antebellum country. And they talked all the time about how white women should stay thin or else they might start to be Black, like they might start to be looked on as if they're Black. There's another article from that magazine that says, "If a white woman gets fat, she might as well put herself in Black face."
You can't see it if you're listening, but there's a lovely eye roll from Virginia.
Our culture has long braided these things together. That's the history when you think about what hasn't changed. I think they are still braided together. When we think about what has changed, from my vantage point, there was maybe five or 10 years where it felt more ok to be fat, and more ok to be Black. It was the like ascendance of Lizzo, you know?
Virginia
A brief shining moment. 
Savala
It was a shining moment. There was also the George Floyd moment. There was a political reckoning with Blackness that was refreshing. I guess maybe it wasn't even five years. It was a brief window. Now it feels like we're in a backlash. It feels a little bit like the more things change, the more they stay the same. We had this moment of a collective leap towards something like liberation. 
Because of politics and because of the capitalistic nature of the pharmaceutical industry in this country and GLP-1s being so, for now anyway, profitable, we're seeing a real backlash to both fatness and Blackness. That lands on women really hard, because of how women are tied to our bodies in this culture in a particular way. So I guess I would say, the more things change, the more they stay the same. 
The silver lining being that because we did have these few years of something like enlightenment, the first sun rays coming over the mountain, there are a lot of people who have a much higher capacity to talk about what our culture does to fatness and Blackness than there were 20 years ago, right? So that's a silver lining, I think. 
Virginia
Yes, I agree with that.
We see these moments of women claiming their bodies and claiming control over their bodies, and then facing tremendous backlash. You talk about the Nicki Minaj album cover that she was taken to task for being too sexual, too graphic, etc.. She was like, 'It's my body.' 
Savala  
'It’s my body.' Also, it's no worse than a Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and everybody likes those. 
Virginia
Yes, they sure do. But those are skinny white lady bodies. 
Savala
Those are skinny white ladies, not voluptuous Black women.
Virginia  
There are these moments where we have the conversation. Whereas if she hadn't had the album cover, we wouldn't have had the conversation. But I'm with you on how it's not enough. The backlash feels so brutal right now. But I do hang on to those moments.
Savala  
I do, as well. The comfort of a backlash is that you know you were doing something right. You can't make a quilt with one stitch. You have to put a lot of stitches in. So we have to keep stitching as far as our own liberation goes. The backlashes will come periodically, the tide comes in and out, you just try to keep inching it forward. I'm hopeful that we will continue, ultimately, to do that.
Virginia  
And keep reminding people where we've been. I really appreciated your post on Instagram this week. There's been so much talk about ICE as the gestapo and you were like, 'Guys, it's not the gestapo, it's slave patrols.' It's our own country. It's our own history that's coming up again here.
I should note for listeners, you're hearing this in March, but we recording this at the end of January, right after all of the violence and murders in Minneapolis. 
Savala  
I understand the urge to look to other countries and the violence in other places, and it's gestapo-like, you know. It's certainly fair to think about a comparison. But to completely ignore the fact that we actually invented this stuff.
Virginia  
That the gestapo guys learned it from us.
Savala
One hundred percent. Exactly.
Virginia
They've been watching what America was doing.
Savala  
Yes, and it's sad to own it, but it's a necessary step, and managing it and moving beyond it is to hold it close and see that it's our own stuff. It's like an individual who wants to grow and improve. They have to own their shit. 'Oh, this is my shit. I have to work on it.' It's the same. It's just at the level of culture.
Virginia  
As a country, we have to own our shit, and some of us are doing more of that than others. 
Well, on the level of the individual, you write a lot in the book about growing up as a fat little girl, being put on diets so heartbreakingly early and then continuing to pursue thinness throughout college and early adulthood. Now that you're on the other side of that, you write about how abandoning the pursuit of thinness feels like becoming a non-woman. I really was interested in this idea of the non-woman. I would love to talk about that a little.
Savala
There's a quote I love from a scholar, Sander Gilman, who studies fatness and gender. You might know this quote Virginia, some of your listeners might, too. He writes that dieting is a way that women show they understand their role in society. Part of the way that women remain and become legible in our culture is by practicing and performing privately and publicly dissatisfaction with their bodies and the pursuit of a better body, which generally means a thinner body, a more toned body, or a "healthier body."
When you do those things as a woman, people get it. They understand you. They don't have to make any inferences. They don't have to wonder what you're doing. It's instantly obvious. When I talk about how much people rely on that sort of vocabulary to understand women. When I talk publicly at schools about this, one of the first things I do in my talks is post a before and after photo without the words "before" and "after." I ask people to raise their hands if they know what it is. The room could have 300 people in it and everybody raises their hands. They know exactly what they're seeing. That's what I mean when I say that the performance of dieting, or body improvement, or body shame, publicly and also privately, makes you readable as a woman to the culture. People can literally read it instantly, the way you can read a stop sign. 
When you stop doing that, when you stop dieting, exercising in ways that are meant to control the shape of your body, the weight of your body, all that stuff. When you stop using that vocabulary to bond with other women, when you stop policing what other people eat. When you stop doing those things, people don't get it. There's some level on which you're no longer performing the role of a woman. That's what I mean when I say that you become a non-woman. You become this other entity, that, let's be clear, exists in other cultures. It has existed in this culture to some extent, in various pockets of it, but that's what I mean. You step outside of the mold, and then people aren't quite sure what to do with you. 
Can I give a quick example? 
Virginia
Yeah, please. 
Savala
I work with a fabulous team of people I love and adore at UC Berkeley. One of them had a birthday, so to celebrate, I brought in a box of fabulous French pastries. We have a little birthday party and we invite lots of people to come by and pick something up if they want to. Every single person, every person, who came in the room said something, and they all happen to be women, something like, 'Ooh, I worked out this morning. That's how I that's how I earned this.' Some version of, 'Oh, God, I shouldn't. I had a bagel for breakfast,' or, 'I'm gonna cut it in half because I think I'm gonna have a big dinner tonight.' I was the only one who didn't. At some point I said, "Come on, guys. Let's just let the food be food. We don't have to earn our food here."
Virginia  
You don’t actually have to publicly perform. 
Savala  
You could have heard a pin drop, Virginia. 
Virginia
Oh, I'm sure.
Savala
It was like I said something in a different language. People don't know how to read the moment anymore. They don't know how to read me anymore. It's so disruptive. So that's what I mean about becoming the non-woman. In that essay, I then go on to talk about the joy of being a non-woman. I don't mean this in the sense of gender identity, I mean it in a more metaphorical, philosophical way. I very much identify as a woman.
Virginia  
Right, but you're rejecting these expectations and this narrow definition of womanhood.
Savala  
One hundred percent. It's a little experiment. If listeners want to try that, I'm sure most of your listeners are already at least one foot in the door of not dieting anymore, but if they want to try performing something else and seeing how they become no longer instantly readable in the space, they'll know what I mean.
Virginia  
It's interesting because it's about how you simultaneously become more visible because you're doing this uncomfortable thing no one knows what to do with, and you're rendering yourself more invisible because you're no longer saying Yes, you can identify me as a sex object. Yes, you can identify me as young and thin and pretty and all the you know. So then it's like, 'Oh, we don't know what to do with her.'
Savala  
Totally. It's a spotlight. It's like, what's that? There's some rubbernecking that happens and you can be in the mood to deal with it or not. It's not like I always will say something when I'm around little pockets of diet culture. But in that moment, there were 12 or 15 people who came through and it was every single one. 
Virginia  
Can we not just eat the pastries?
Savala  
Yeah. And if you don't want one for whatever reason, that's ok. 
Virginia  
Don't tell us why. Just don't eat it. It's fine.
Well, that's a great example too, because that's also the kind of modeling that I'm sure you're conscious of doing in front of your kiddo. There's a line in the book I really loved where you write:
My child is my child, carrier of my histories, and I worry she'll be particularly vulnerable to dieting. In order to fortify her, I build a home life free from diet culture. 
This is, of course, a huge focus of my work. It's why I wrote Fat Talk.
Savala
It's the bread and butter, if you will.
Virginia  
It is the bread, yes. We'll get to the butter, but it's definitely the foundation of Burnt Toast. Deliberately, I'm more likely to say, 'Let's just eat the cake,' or 'Eat the dessert' when I know my kids are listening, because I've got to model the other way. I've got to model the non-woman for them.
I would love to know what are some of the little things you do to get the anti-diet, parenting stuff in?
Savala  
Well, the number one thing, and this will be very familiar to the Burnt Toast crew, is I, myself don't diet. That's number one. I don't pursue intentional weight loss, and I haven't since my daughter was about six months old. That was breaking point when I started to look for a different kind of life. Not only do I not diet or pursue intentional weight loss, I never, not once, have ever spoken ill of my body or complained about my body in front of my daughter.
It's funny when you're raising a girl because on the one hand, I want my daughter to feel beautiful and I want to speak a sense of beauty into her. "Oh, you're so beautiful." And I want to talk about myself through the lens of beauty for that reason, too. On the other hand, you don't want to over emphasize beauty and teach them that that is a super meaningful currency that they have to ... you know what I mean? 
Virginia  
It's like, 'You are beautiful and it's the least interesting thing about you.' You're holding both of those with both hands all the time.
Savala  
All the time. So I speak well of my body, but try not to do it in a way that feels too "cover of a magazine" oriented. There are other little things like, we decant food in our house so most of it is not associated with "nutrition information."
And we talk about nutrition information, because she picks it up in the world. But in our house, it's just in the container. I make a point of letting her choose how much she eats. I tend to take on the responsibility of picking what's on offer, and then she chooses how much. But we've mix that up as she's gotten older.
I fill my home with physical media, like figurines, statues, posters, books that have all kinds of bodies, especially fat bodies, because I want that to feel normal and celebrated for her. I want her to see fat bodies depicted as beautiful, wonderful things, not just as things we try to move away from or punish. It's good for me, too. Almost anything that I practice for myself, I practice for her, in an age appropriate way. 
Including being really playful. It doesn't all have to be political. I talk in the book about this one episode where my daughter was probably about four or five years old, and she wanted some chocolate chips after she had already had dessert. Initially, I was like, "No, you had your ice cream. We'll have chocolate chips another time." And then I was like, I want some chocolate chips. I said, "Actually, yeah, let's have some chocolate chips." We each had a little handful, and she said, "I wish I could have more." And I was like, "I think one is enough." And then I was like, "Actually, let's have more." And we sort of did that playfully a few times. She still loves it. She remembers it was such joy. My goal there was to have a little fun, but also to celebrate appetite, and take this moment that we often are taught to read as personal failure - going back for a little more - and change it into something that was fun and goofy and totally fine.
Virginia  
Celebrating pleasure. Yeah, let's have more. It tastes good tonight. Let's do it and not feel like we have to put guardrails around that.
Savala  
Exactly. I look for moments like that, and I'll say, who knows what the future brings, but my kid has a really joyful, non self-conscious relationship with food that involves eating all kinds of things, including broccoli and kale, and with her body. Who knows what the world brings? Well, we do know what the world brings. We know what's coming, but she has a foundation that's much better than mine was.
Virginia  
Yeah, such a different foundation than what you had. And that has to do something. I have to believe that.
Savala  
Yeah, it has to. It has to. And I must say, obviously, your book inspired me and was part of my inspiration in how I approached feeding my kiddo.
Virginia  
I'm so glad it's helpful. Yeah, I mean, it's always a work in progress, but it is really rewarding when you see kids having that ease and not overthinking and not getting caught in those in those traps that we do. 
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Butter
Editor's note: We're splitting Savala's interview into two episodes, so tune in to part two on March 19 to hear Savala's "classy and trashy" butters.
Part two will be for paid subscribers only, so go to patreon.com/virginiasolesmith to join us. Membership starts at just $5 per month. You're not going to want to miss this the second part of this conversation.
Join here for just $5 per month
Join Just Toast!
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Virginia
All right. Well, this was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for being here. Just tell folks where we find you and how we support your work.
Savala
Oh, it's been a serious joy to be here. I could do it all again. 
The best way to support my work is, of course, to buy Good Woman: A Reckoning and share it with the women in your life that you love, and maybe even the the men in your life that you love.
Virginia
I agree with that. 
Savala
If you can't buy it, you can get it at libraries, or borrow it from a friend. Obviously, as an author, I'm interested in book sales, but mostly I'm interested in the ideas in the book doing good in the world. So read Good Woman.
If people want to hang out a little bit, I'm on Instagram at savalanolan. SavalaNolan.com is my website, which is another way to get in touch with me. I totally welcome that. I love doing book clubs, talking to readers, all that stuff, so if folks are interested, they should reach out.
Virginia  
Thank you, Savala. This was such a joy.
Savala
Thank you, Virginia. The pleasure was mine.
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Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast. If you enjoyed the conversation, please support our work with a paid subscription. They start at just $5 a month, and you'll keep Burnt Toast an ad and sponsor free space. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.
This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Our video editor is Elizabeth Ayiku, who also runs the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders. Learn more and donate at melittlemefoundation.org.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay and it’s time for your February Indulgence Gospel!
Today we are talking about influencers who show their expensive influencer grocery hauls, as well as people who spend A LOT OF MONEY on food delivery. (If you too had feelings about that ChrisLovesJulia reel...let's get into it!)
We also talk about our own spending on groceries and food delivery....and our complicated feelings about both. 🥴
You do need to be a paid Just Toast subscriber to listen to this full conversation. Membership starts at just $5 per month!
Join Just Toast!
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Episode 234 Transcript
Virginia
Today we are going to talk about a phenomenon that I keep seeing on Instagram: influencer groceries. So these are reels where people unpack all their bags and show you all the food going in their fridge. It's like, 'Oh, by the way, we're a family of four and we spent $600 at the grocery store.'
As someone who buys groceries for a family that size, I would like to say that that number is jarring and yet, also not totally out of the realm of possibility. It made me take a hard look at my grocery spending. What are we performing in these reels where people are showing what and how they eat, and what are the diet culture implications of that?
Corinne, how about you? Do your groceries cost $600 a week?
Corinne  
I won't respond to that directly.
Virginia
We will just skip that question.
Corinne  
Groceries are a perennially interesting topic for me. Everyone has been saying that grocery prices are crazy now! 
Virginia
They're so high. 
Corinne
When I saw that particular reel about how much a family is spending per week on groceries, I was like, "believable."
Virginia  
Yeah. The reel that we're going to talk about is from Julia Marcum, aka @chrislovesjulia. I have talked before on this podcast about she is one of my problematic faves. 
She is a high-end, home influencer/Mormon wife and mother who now lives in North Carolina, just to locate the economics of her grocery shopping. She has talked openly about living with a lot of food restrictions due to health problems. She is grain, gluten, dairy, pork and refined sugar free. Which I was like, How do you spend money on groceries? There's nothing left to eat. 
This is a particular reel where we see her husband, Chris, coming into the house with multiple paper bags of groceries from, I believe, Trader Joe's and Whole Foods. Then he's unloading organic yogurt, so much produce, like nine boxes of blueberries, and these sort of, I don't know, some kind of special breakfast sausage, lots of packaged foods, but not the kind of packaged foods we would demonize as processed foods. It's very heavy on the wellness brands and the produce side of things, I would say.
Corinne  
I agree with that assessment. When I was watching it being unpacked, I was like, This feels like a treats grocery shopping trip for me. Where you go grocery shopping and buy yourself a lot of treats.
Virginia  
It's the fancy food shopping. That's what I thought, too.
Corinne
The juice, the berries.
Virginia
And they were like, 'No, this is how we eat every week. We just eat fancy food all the time.' There's two whole chickens in the mix, which I'm oddly fixated on. But it is true, sometimes a whole chicken doesn't feed as many people as you think it's going to. So I guess I understand roasting two at once. 
A couple of things were really interesting to me about this. One, yes, there's the diet culture piece of things: she says that her go-to snack is blueberries. That is both an expensive go-to snack, and not a very satisfying go-to snack. What's with the blueberries? I want to know.
She talks about how she eats exactly what the rest of the family does, but if they're eating rice, she'll eat cauliflower rice. So I was like, Well, that's not eating exactly what the family eats. 
There's also a humblebrag that Chris "runs the grocery and dinner rhythm," as she puts it. She cooked for six months after they got married and then he took over. That's obviously fairly rare in heterosexual marriage. Much more often the mom is doing all of the mental load of grocery shopping and food prep. So I thought that was pretty interesting. 
There's also the backlash in the comment section. People were pretty mad about this grocery haul. 
Corinne  
It's hard not to feel mad when you're seeing someone living it up when most people are stressed about grocery bills. Also, how are they keeping all those blueberries good for a week? One thing of blueberries in my fridge goes bad in like two days.
Virginia  
I know. You breathe on them and they all wither and die.
Corinne  
Just buy frozen blueberries?
Virginia  
I buy quite a lot of frozen blueberries for smoothies every week and they are much cheaper.
Corinne  
Definitely more economical.
Virginia  
If you're just standing there snacking on them like a squirrel, what difference does it make if they're fresh or frozen? 
This reel was posted the first week of February. It was just a couple months ago that the federal government canceled SNAP for all of November. Millions of families didn't know how to buy groceries at all. So there's a real lack of awareness.
The Marcums are never political, but I would guess their political leanings run conservative. There's probably a conscious choice not to worry, 'Are we offending people who are struggling to feed their families when we talk about spending $657 on one week of groceries?'
It also made me think about Mormon prosperity gospel culture. This is very celebrated to be able to live lavishly and well in this way and have all of this elaborate food, and they kind of dress it up in 'food is an important part of our family's bonding time.' But you can have quality family bonding time around food and not have it be this kind of food.
Corinne  
One question I also had was, when they made this reel, did they think, 'Oh, people are going to be outraged by this.' I'm just so curious what they expected the response would be.
Virginia  
I can't decide if they are that out of touch with what the average family is like. Is this like the Lucille Bluth banana moment? Is that what's happening? Or was it honestly a little more insidious, and they knew that number would get crazy engagement? Because it absolutely did.
Corinne  
I kind of think the latter. Did they respond at all?
Virginia  
Yes, there is a comment from Julia where she says, “I know that's a big grocery budget. Everyone prioritizes their money differently.”
 Some people just don't have money Julia! But sure, it's priorities. 
“I've been sharing Chris Cooks recipes for 17 years, and our budget has fluctuated from price matching everything in my cart to this.”
And then she talks about her eating issues.
“The back story that newcomers may not know. Two years ago, I had a really bad relationship with food. It felt like every month I had to cut out a new food group due to health complications. My blood sugar was out of whack. I was diagnosed with reactive hypoglycemia and celiac disease. On top of my autoimmune condition. I coped by completely disconnecting from food and saw it as fuel only. It wasn't fun to eat because my diet was so restricted.”
She names all her restrictions. 
“At the beginning of 2025 I made it a goal to have a better relationship with food, for me and my family's sake, food is so much more than vital. It brings people together. It's an activity and a hobby and an experience. I still don't eat more food groups, but I no longer eat the same thing every day out of fear.” 
Other than the pint of blueberries, I guess. 
“Yes, we spend a lot of on groceries. It's usually closer to $550 a week, to be honest. But this week we got more because of bad weather. But it is also Chris's hobby, my medicine and the way we show our love to others, no regrets.”
Corinne  
In a way, I do find that comment sort of convincing.
Virginia  
It's really her experience of it. 
Corinne  
If you have a hard relationship with food, I think there is freedom in just being like, 'Yeah, I'm going to spend more money on food I like.' If you have the money.
Virginia  
There's a tremendous privilege here. I would love more acknowledging of the privilege rather than just saying, 'Everyone has different priorities.' Some people's priority is keeping their heat on, so they're not spending a lot on groceries.
Corinne  
I don't follow her, so maybe I should start. But what is she cutting back on?
Virginia  
Absolutely nothing. One of my favorite comments in the thread/backlash is a person being like, 'Are you all surprised? They live in a million dollar home. They just bought a lake house. Like, was this your first clue that they are living a lifestyle the rest of us cannot afford?'
So no, she's cutting back on absolutely nothing in order to pay for these groceries. It's not a question of priorities. It's a question of conspicuous consumption. 
I also think it's interesting that she frames it as Chris's hobby, that family dinner and feeding the family is his hobby. She's propping him up, like, 'Oh, what a hero. He does the grocery shopping and makes dinner, so I don't have to. What a good husband.' And then also, it's like, 'Well, guys, he just really loves it. It's his hobby.'
Corinne  
That is a justification people use for spending more on groceries though. It's entertainment, basically.
Virginia  
And I don't think that's the worst thing. I just think it's interesting in the context of her saying, 'This is labor he's performing for the family.'
Corinne  
I would not like to hear a husband say that about his wife, that cooking dinner "was her hobby."
Virginia  
'She's just so into it, she just can't get enough.' No, it just has to happen every night, but ok.
Corinne  
Should we talk about our own grocery bills?
Virginia  
I'm not going to share numbers because numbers are triggering to me, personally. But I'll share a few numbers. 
I will say that in order to prep for this episode, I went and added up everything I spent on groceries in January and the number is much higher than I expected it to be. 
Some context is, this number does include all of our household items. I noticed Julia did not unpack any toilet paper, kitty litter, or cleaning supplies. All of that is a separate line item in her budget. My number includes everything that we buy at the grocery store for our house. So there's that. 
We also did host out of town guests twice. So there was buying more hobby type of food for entertaining. 
My kids have particular food preferences. It is absolutely a privilege that I can support those preferences and buy the specific brands of certain items that they really rely on. I think anyone who deals with a kid, picky eating, ARFID, or anything in that universe knows what I'm talking about. We get real excited when we see Amy's burritos on sale, but they are not always on sale, and they are still a staple in our house. 
So, yeah, my numbers are high. I would say the average grocery trip is around $180 to $200, and we're probably going at least twice a week. 
Corinne  
One thing I was thinking about when I was looking at my own numbers was the fact that last year we stopped shopping at Amazon. For me, that included Whole Foods, where I was getting a lot of groceries.
Virginia
Did you save money? 
Corinne
Whole Foods has the reputation of being crazy expensive. But what I've been substituting it with is the Co-Op, and the Co-Op is definitely more expensive than Whole Foods. The basic grocery store here, which is Kroger variations like Albertsons or Smiths, is less expensive than Whole Foods most of the time, but sometimes comparable. 
So I think I'm definitely spending more this year, rising food costs aside. 
In January, I was traveling for a week, I had my birthday and all kinds of other stuff. So I looked back at a couple months and I had a crazy amount of variation. Some months we're talking $350, some months we're talking $1,000.
Virginia
Total for the month? Not $1,000 in one grocery shop?
Corinne
Oh, yeah. No. Sorry, I was looking at the month not the week.
Virginia
I just wanted to clarify since the Chris Loves Julia reel is $657 for one shop.
Corinne  
I think my average is probably $100 a week. But that's for me, one person. Their number is for five people. Is that right? So yeah, they're technically, maybe spending less per person than I am? I don't know. 
Virginia  
I mean, they are buying a lot of blueberries, but I hear you. 
It's interesting how uncomfortable it is to look at this spending, and some of it we don't have any control over, because, again, food prices are astronomical right now. They're only getting worse. I think there is so much cultural pressure to eat healthy in certain ways, which are almost always more expensive because of our broken food system.
It still feels super uncomfortable to look and realize you're spending more than you thought you were, or that you want to be, but it's like, are we - not to be a Chris Loves Julia apologist now - but are we holding ourselves to a standard of not spending a lot on food? Is that actually a realistic standard in this day and age? I'm not sure that it is.
Corinne  
The other thing their grocery bill doesn't show is how much they're spending on takeout or DoorDash.
Virginia  
Let's talk about that. Also, a hard moment for me. 
But yes, we want to also talk about a piece that was in New York Times Cooking, a story from New York Times food writer Priya Krishna, about people who are just really dependent on the convenience of food delivery, but aware that the costs are insane. The example she uses, that was in an Instagram post, is a married couple with kids who were spending about $700 a week to order in. I guess by that math the Chris Loves Julia tab is not so bad, because I assume they were only ordering in dinner, although I'm actually not sure.
Corinne  
This article is wild, and I will say that I was much more afraid to look at my own numbers on this. Then I looked at them, and I was like, This is actually not bad at all. 
Virginia
Oh, wow. That's great for you. 
Corinne
However, I've really been thinking a lot about food delivery because, I don't know if you saw this, but at the beginning of the year there was a Reddit food delivery whistleblower post. I think it was about Uber Eats. (More on this here!)
Someone posted all this stuff about how literally evil these companies are, how they give drivers a "desperation score," and then give those people lower paying jobs. And how if you tip high, they lower the base pay. However -
Virginia
Wait, if you tip high, they lower lower the base pay?
Corinne  
Ok, let me finish! I literally read this and was so upset. I was like, I'm never DoorDashing again. Then when I went to do a light bit of research for this episode and it turns out that it was an AI-generated thing. It's not real. Whether or not those policies actually exist, I don't know. But they tried to fact check it and it turned out to be fake.
Virginia
How do we trust anything? I don't understand. I don't know.
Corinne  
I also had this crazy experience where I DoorDashed a few things and saw them get stolen off my porch. I chased the person down, screaming at them through my neighborhood. I did not get my things back. I was just like, What am I doing? I'm trying to make my life easier, but I'm actually just making it harder and more miserable. These companies are bad, even if they're not as evil as I thought.
Virginia
I mean, they're not good.
Corinne  
So I've really been trying not to do DoorDash.
Virginia  
I'm cutting down. I'm a work in progress. I've been ignoring all of the hidden fees. I also tip really high because I've been worried about the worker experience, although now I'm wondering if it's good to tip high if they lose the base pay. I assume me over-tipping is still the way to go.
We are down to ordering Uber Eats probably once a week, and it's usually around $100 every time for dinner for two people, which is wild.
Corinne  
That doesn't seem bad, because I feel like every time I order it's $80.
Virginia  
It's a lot. 
I feel complicated about this because there was a season in my life, quite recently, where I was very dependent on delivery. After my divorce, it was just me doing all the things in my house, and feeding us was a place where my bandwidth really - like, I was just done. I was maxed out. I was so burned out on cooking. It wasn't fun cooking for just me and my kids. It was really hard.
Being able to order delivery got me through that season. And now that there's someone sharing cooking with me again, I feel like, Ok, we could work on this more. We could cook the pantry more often, even if we didn't make a meal plan. We don't have to default to ordering sushi.
But also, I love sushi. I'm not saying I'm never going to do it.
Corinne  
I will say, for me it's a fallback. Whenever I'm stressed and feeling like I don't have enough time, I'm like, I'll just DoorDash it, or, I'll just Instacart it. I do feel like forty percent of the time something ends up going slightly wrong.
Virginia  
I live on a road where I'm on a road named South, and there's also a road name North. If you go to the road named North, you're on a mountain lost to civilization. So I've definitely had a few deliveries go off into the ether that way, which, I feel awful for them, and sad for me. 
I agree. It's this thing that's supposed to reduce friction and make your life easier, and then it can end up being absolutely not that, which is frustrating, but again, for folks who are primary caregivers, single parents, disabled folks, there's a lot of reasons why the accessibility of delivery is important. It would be nice if, as a society, we valued that labor and paid delivery drivers well for their work, because it is, I would argue, kind of a vital service.
Corinne  
It's a really interesting, big change in the way the world works in the past five years. I also think about working in a restaurant and what it must be like to make so much food that's getting eaten elsewhere.
Virginia  
Yeah, you're just boxing stuff up. You lose the community feeling of eating out. That feels like a loss. 
I felt less judgment for the couple spending $700 a week to order in than I did on the Marcum's grocery bill. I don't know what that means because they're both performing wealth, for sure. If you're in a position to spend $700 a week on dinner, even if you're scandalized by it, you have wealth. But also, man, cooking is hard. I'm tired, too. I get it.
Corinne  
Personally, I was feeling more judgment for the $700 a week, ordering-in people. But I will say, ordering in is so dependent on where you live. Like, if you live in New York, the quality of food you can order in is just a lot higher than for example where my mom lives, the only option is Domino's.
Virginia  
We have more options than that, but in terms of really good meals that I'm excited to order in, sushi or Indian, that's really it. Again, during that stressful period, there were weeks I ate sushi more than once, for sure. But it does put a cap on how often that works. I'm like, Well, you literally just ate that. 
My main critique of the Marcums is not that they spend that much on groceries, but that they so obliviously performed how much they spend in order to get engagement. Were sponsors involved? They weren't disclosed, but it seems very likely given how many product labels are in that reel - that somebody was paying them to promote that stuff. That is worth critiquing more than people's individual eating habits, because feeding yourself is hard, and feeding your kids is hard.
Corinne  
I think there's more guilt in general over ordering in versus buying groceries. Like buying groceries is better?
Virginia  
Yeah, it's Chris. He's out there making dinner with the two roast chickens every night. That's noble and heroic. And ordering in is like, 'Oh, you're just a slob on your couch.'
I think they're morally equivalent activities, for sure. They're both ways to feed yourself. There's no bad way to feed yourself. 
Corinne  
I definitely felt more guilt looking at my ordering in number versus my groceries number.
Virginia  
I felt bad about all of it. I felt I there was no good here for me, and also I feel like, Well, I'm doing what I can to get everybody fed in a house with a lot of complicated needs, and that is what it is. 
All right. Well, this was a really juicy conversation. I'm excited to hear people's thoughts. You can tell us if you think we spend way too much or not enough, and how you spend on groceries and take out. I would love to hear. 
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Butter
Virginia
Should we do butter? 
Corinne
Yeah, what's your butter? 
Virginia
My butter is my amazing calendar that you gave me for Christmas by your friend Robyn Frank.
Corinne
Yes, Robyn A. Frank (website here.)
Virginia
It's been making me happy. I hung it up in January, but then I just switched to February and the February picture is so beautiful. I was just like, Oh, all year long, this is going to give me joy.
Corinne  
It's an amazing calendar. I also have one. Robyn is a friend and we do the Fat Swim together. She's an Albuquerque, New Mexico-based artist.
Virginia  
Her work is beautiful. It's really cheerful and rainbow-y, but not cutesy rainbows, like aesthetic rainbows. I may not be describing it well.
Corinne
That's a good description. I like that. 
Virginia
I should also note that Corinne's other Christmas present to me, which I was going to make its own separate butter, but I'll just go ahead and shout it out now, is the L.L. Bean boat and tote that she had monogrammed with the word "BUTTER" on it. You guys, it's such a good gift. 
Corinne  
Can't wait to see it in the wild.
Virginia  
It's been getting a lot of use. I need to take photos of it out and about. It's great. All right, what about you? 
Corinne  
Ok, well, my butter is that this past weekend, one of my friends came over and we made Valentine's. 
Virginia
I love that. 
Corinne
It was really fun. I couldn't tell you the last time I did that - make a Valentine, or do a glue stick based craft. Afterwards, I was like, Wow, that was so fun. Am I going to start collaging? I know we were talking about that with Kim, too. So my butter is paper crafts, glue sticks.
Virginia  
I love collaging and glue sticks. My kids have never been super into it, but I do keep a lot of glue sticks on our art table to encourage it. I have found that if you're someone who has sensory feelings about glue sticks, a good sticker collection is really great here. Sometimes I'll just sit and make little sticker postcards. It's very satisfying.
Are you sending them out to people?
Corinne  
Well, I haven't yet, but that is my intention. I will say, I think I made like, three. It took longer than I thought.
Virginia  
That makes sense. It's not a holiday gift, or like a Christmas card list.
Corinne
Nope!
Virginia
Two hundred people are getting handmade Valentine's? No.
That makes sense. I love that. And I love any opportunity to make Valentine's Day and adjacent activities that are not so, you know, commercial and heteronormative and blah, blah, blah.
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 All right. Well, this was a good episode. 
Make sure you are following us in your podcast player. Scroll down wherever you're listening, tap the stars, five of them please, and leave us a review. That really helps us grow and helps new listeners find conversations like these.
Today's Indulgence Gospel is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.
This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Our video editor is Elizabeth Ayiku, who also runs the Me Little Me Foundation, a virtual food pantry supporting multiply marginalized folks recovering from eating disorders. Learn more and donate at melittlemefoundation.org.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast! We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay.
Today our conversation is with Kim Baldwin, the newest member of the Burnt Toast team.
Kim is the former digital editor for the Nashville Scene. Her culture writing can be found in places like the Nashville Scene, Parnassus Books’ Musings and on her Substack. Kim has interviewed folks like Sarah Sherman, Trixie Mattel, John Waters, Samantha Irby and Tess Holliday.
Originally a blogger, Kim started The Blonde Mule in 2006 and later turned her popular interview series “These My Bitches” into a podcast called Ladyland. Kim writes a weekly newsletter about books and pop culture, teaches social media classes and is a frequent conversation partner for author events in Nashville.
If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscription is the best way to support our work!
Join Burnt Toast
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Episode 233 Transcript
Virginia
We have a very fun episode for you today. We are introducing to all the Burnt Toasties, many of whom may already know and love her, our new podcast producer Kim Baldwin. 
Kim
Hi, hi, hi. 
Virginia
We are really happy you're here. Kim is doing a lot of things to improve our workflow. Yesterday she taught Corinne and me how to use Slack. Corinne, I think you already knew how to use Slack, but I sure did not. So that was exciting.
Kim is joining us not just to teach us Slack, but to help with podcast production and make everything run more smoothly and efficiently. We are really grateful to her and thought it would be fun to do an episode where you get to know her.
Kim  
I'm excited to be on the Burnt Toast team, and excited to be here today despite harrowing conditions. 
Virginia
Truly harrowing.
Kim
I'm coming to you live from a public library because my home does not have water or internet.
Virginia  
Yes, Kim is surviving the Nashville ice apocalypse, where, what 130,000 people have been displaced?
Kim
230,000.
Virginia
230,000 people have been displaced. So she has been heroically working on
Burnt Toast while literally being out of her home, back in her home, but now working from the library. Yay, public libraries! We love you.
Let's dive in. Corinne, why don't we take turns asking our questions?
Corinne  
My first question is, what is your fat radicalization story? How did you get interested in body liberation work?
Kim  
When I turned 40 I had to get a biometric screening for health insurance because over 40, you have to qualify for insurance. It was a really stigmatizing appointment. In hindsight, it was traumatic. My therapist was like, Enough. You have to go see someone now. 
That was 2018. I started working with an anti-diet registered dietitian. I thought I was going for one or two appointments, just for someone to say, "It's fine, you're all good." It became evident I had a disordered relationship, primarily with exercise, but also with eating. I went into what I now call recovery. It wasn't called that in real-time. It was just a chill, "Well, why don't you come see me every week for a while?"
So I did that. I worked with Katherine Fowler, a non-diet, registered dietitian nutritionist here in Nashville. She's great. I knew nothing before her. She introduced me to anti-diet and Health at Every Size. She gave me a bunch of resources, one of which was Christy Harrison and Food Psych. I went whole hog. I listened to the back catalog of Food Psych, I read a bunch of books. I think Christy's first book came out around that time. It was so radical to me to think, Hold on, I can be fat, or, Hold on, I don't have to exercise this much. I was an Iron Man, so I was at that level of exercise.
Virginia  
Oh wow. Oh gosh, that's aggressive.
Kim  
When you exercise that much, for me, restrictive eating is just part of it. They really do go hand in hand. You control your food to try to control your outcomes and races and stuff.
That's a long answer: back in 2018 I started working with registered dietitian, and she blew my mind and saved my life.
Virginia  
That's amazing. Yay, registered dietitians who do that work! Also, yay, Food Psych! That was a great podcast. Corinne, wasn't it one of your entry points, too? I feel like we've talked about this.
Corinne  
Yeah. I was a regular listener.
Virginia  
Just hearing people's stories over and over. The way Christy structured that was so healing and valuable for so many people.
I've always been a fan of your culture writing. You always have amazing book recs, movie recs. Your newsletter The Blonde Mule is definitely one of my go to's for like, Ooh, what culture am I missing out on? Kim will know. So I would love to know who are some of your fat culture inspirations, icons, or just people you really love in that space?
Kim  
For sure Aubrey Gordon. She was an original, and back then, she was anonymous. Her Instagram posts back in the day - she still sometimes reposts those old ones in her stories. She still means so much to me. I learned about her early on. 
And then, of course, Lindy West. I had read Shrill, and because I worked at an alt-weekly, she also worked at The Stranger in Seattle, which is their alt-weekly, and we had similar jobs, so I looked up to her. She had this great essay in The Stranger where she came out as fat. In real time, I wasn't there yet, but when I got into recovery and started learning, I realized how ahead of her time - ahead of all of us - she was. 
And then, Virginia, you and people I found through Food Psych and through Christy. Back then we were all still using social media with wild abandon. You could learn about people through Instagram stories. Christy Harrison would repost all these people to her Instagram stories and I would click through and follow who she reposted. She'd repost something of yours, or, I can't even remember all the people back then. Oh, Ragen Chastain. I've been reading her stuff this whole time. I hope everyone reads her and knows what amazing work she's doing in this space. I can't get a sense of how many people know how much she's doing.
Virginia  
She does such deep dives into the research. She really is someone who is taking the time to take apart scientific papers, look at the methodology, look a what bias went into the research. I have learned so much from Ragen. I started following her back in probably the early 2000s when she was writing about being a fat dancer. I remember I interviewed her for a woman's magazine.
Kim
Oh right. I forgot about that, her original handle.
Virginia
Dances With Fat. Oh, you're making me nostalgic for this time. Now everyone's like, Body positivity is dead, and it was never really good, but there were these really good folks doing great work in the mix. 
Kim  
There was an organic way to find, I don't want to say community in the way we say it now, but I didn't know anybody in real life going through what I was going through, or who was learning what I was learning. All I had, truly, was Food Psych. So if someone was on Food Psych, I would look them up. I would follow them. And then that reposting thing, that's how I found so many people.
Virginia  
Yeah, it's so true.
Corinne  
Kim, where does the name The Blonde Mule come from? 
Kim  
Oh, this question.
Corinne
If you want to skip it ...
Kim
It brings up a lot of embarrassment. I should address it. 
Virginia
It's time. Kim, it's time. I don't know the backstory.
Kim
In 2006 I started a personal blog on blogspot because everyone was doing it. Back then it was the thing to have a cutesy name. No one used their government name online back then. Your email wasn't your name, your blog - none of that was your name. I'm a Taurus and I am actually stubborn, so "the mule" was kind of a nickname. There was this formula of a physical descriptor plus a nickname. All my friends had a version of this. I thought, Oh, I'll just do the blonde mule. I'll change it later, nobody cares. No one followed me. 
Then I had to buy my domain name and get handles on social media sites. So 2006 to 2026, how many years is that? Is that 20 years? So unfortunately, I'm locked in. Because now I own that name. I don't love it because I wish I hadn't self identified with my hair color. Especially because it's blonde and that means a lot of things that don't align with my values. Also, during the pandemic, I quit coloring my hair and so I'm not really blonde anymore.
Virginia  
A blonde-ish mule.
Corinne  
I would consider you blonde. 
Virginia  
I still would consider you blonde. 
Corinne
Also Virginia, aren't you also a Taurus?
Virginia
I am also a Taurus. I am also pretty stubborn.
Corinne
This is an earth sign podcast. I'm a Capricorn.
Kim
John, my husband, is a Capricorn.
Virginia  
I don't know what that means. 
Kim
We're very compatible.
Corinne  
Yes, I also have a Taurus Moon.
Virginia  
Sure. I've been meaning to get one of those. I don't understand astrology.
But I do relate to picking a name and sticking with it because now you're stuck with it. In many ways that is the backstory of Burnt Toast. So relatable. I named it on a whim. People are always like, What's that about? And I'm like, I mean, not a lot. But it is what it is. 
The Blonde Mule is sticky. It sticks with you.
Kim  
There are people who make me feel better. One is Samantha Irby because she is still bitches gotta eat. She also is from, like, 2006. There are a few of us that are locked in. What are you going to do? I literally bought this name.
Virginia  
I'm stuck with it. You might as well own it, for sure. 
Another part of your work life is that you work at the famous Parnassus Books, owned by best-selling author and icon Ann Patchett. I am a former bookstore girl. I love bookstores. Most authors, we love bookstores. So I really love talking about bookstores. I want to know, what's the most fun part of bookstore life? Also, does this bookstore have any pets?
Kim  
The bookstore has so many pets. We have shop dogs. Ann famously has a dog, Nemo. He appears in most of the videos. Before Nemo she had a cute little guy named Sparky, who I loved so much. There's a back office staff and they almost all have dogs and bring their dogs to work. 
Virginia
Love this. 
Kim
There's one bookseller who has a dog, but she's on maternity leave, so we're a little bit short on dogs that are out on the floor, but in the back office, it's dog central. 
This is my second time working there. I worked there in 2019. I've mostly been self-employed and worked from home for a really long time. My mood was starting to get dark and my therapist suggested it would be nice to have some socialization and to leave my house one or two days a week. I was friendly with Parnassus, so I asked, "Is this a thing?" And they were excited, so they hired me to be a part-time bookseller back in 2019. Then the pandemic hit and they closed for a long time and it just didn't make sense anymore. 
I went and did a whole other job for a few years and left that job last year and went back to the bookstore. Same thing. I still work from home and I work at the bookstore one or two days a week.
I do actually love a million things about it, but my favorite thing this round is everyone I work with is 24 years old, give or take. I love them so much. It is so invigorating to be around a whole staff of 24 year olds. They all love their parents. They have really good parents. They're mostly queer, which makes it extra nice that none of their parents were bad. Their parents are super accepting. They're all really smart and they're all funny. The things that are funny to them are so strange. There are all these long running jokes about, like, which Muppet are you? That's a fun thing for Gen Z.
Virginia  
That sounds delightful. I mean, I think bookstore people are just the best people and the most charming weirdos. And I love hearing that 24 year olds love their parents. Because even though my oldest kid is 12, and we have a ways to go, fingers crossed we'll get there.
Kim  
Yeah. Our generation, not so much.
Virginia  
It's not a given. Let's put it that way. It's not a given.
We're going to do a lightning round of fun, goofy questions so we can all get to know you better. Corinne, why don't you kick it off?
Corinne  
All right, first question. Tell us about your pets.
Kim  
Ooh, I have two official pets. I have two cats. They came in at different times. They're both street cats. One is Nomi. He's kind of a Siamese cat. The other one is your regular striped street cat. His name is Benny.
Virginia
And you have an owl in your backyard. 
Kim
I have an owl. I live in the country, so we have deer, turkey, owls, hawks, a skunk and a lot of snakes.
Virginia  
Nice.
Favorite hobbies? I know from Instagram you are into collage making and you are into puzzles and I'm here for both of them.
Kim  
Yes, you are part of my puzzle journey. I knew that you got that table and you were doing them, and I thought, Ooh, that seems relaxing. We moved into this house last year, and I thought, Who am I going to be in the country? I'm going to be someone who does puzzles, and I'm going to get a puzzle table. And I did.
Virginia  
It's so relaxing. The best.
Kim  
The collage thing is new. I went to a divorce party and we were doing blackout poetry collages. I had never heard of any of this. I had the time of my life and my friend was like, You can just do this at home. And so now I do.
Virginia  
Corinne was nodding because Corinne is cooler and of course she knows what black out poetry collages are. I do not. 
Corinne
I think you do, as well. 
Virginia
Is it like what Kate Baer writes? Like blacked out words? Okay, that is cool. I love that.
Corinne  
Kim, tell us your favorite comfort food or snacks.
Kim  
I've needed a lot of comfort this week. My go-to is chicken tenders and mashed potatoes. You do need carbs when you're this stressed out because your body's trying to slow you down and get you to rest and sleep. So there's been a lot of tendies in my life.
Corinne  
Are these from a specific restaurant? Or the freezer section?
Kim  
This week they're from a grocery store. There's a proliferation of chicken stuff here - the Nashville hot chicken. Truly, everywhere you go, there's hot chicken and there's tenders. The driving force of Nashville is chicken tenders.
Corinne
Sounds like heaven.
Virginia
Burnt Toast retreat in Nashville?? We just eat chicken tenders for three days? Start planning it now. That sounds great. 
Favorite thing you wore recently, and what makes it your favorite?
Kim  
Let's talk about jeans. I don't know what we're supposed to be wearing anymore. I am still comfortable in skinny jeans.
Virginia
It's okay. This is a jeans safe space.
Kim
I'm locked and loaded in those high-rise, skinny jeans. But that is not what we're supposed to be wearing anymore.
Virginia  
They're real mad at us for still wanting to wear them.
Kim  
Let me tell you what the people I work with wear. It looks like I work with the Insane Clown Posse. They are wearing jeans so big and baggy it blows my mind. So I thought, Let me try. I bought a pair of - everything comes from Big Undies - I bought these Old Navy barrel jeans and I feel nuts in them. But I wore them to work and everyone was like, That's what you're supposed to look like! I've never been more uncomfortable in my life than when I wear these jeans. 
Corinne  
You realize you're going to have to send us photos, right? We're going to be texting your co-workers to take secret photos of you. 
Kim
Oh, my God.
Virginia  
We're going to need a photo.
Kim  
I went to a museum recently and wore those Old Navy barrel jeans - light wash, I will add - very uncomfortable.
Virginia  
You went right into the deep end of that swimming pool.
Kim  
I went in. And then I have this Universal Standard shirtdress. They have them in white and black. It's just a button up, floor length thing. I wore that, obviously unbuttoned from the waist down, and then I have those Crocs Dylan platform clogs.
Corinne  
My God, this is very chic outfit. 
Kim
I have the ones that are like clown shoes.
Corinne
They're platform Crocs.
Kim  
I wore that to the museum and I think it's the coolest I've ever looked, but it's the most uncomfortable I've ever been in my life.
Virginia  
So cool though.
Corinne  
Dying to see it. 
Kim
It's my only outfit. Everything else is workout clothes.
Virginia  
You have one outfit. You're set. 
I mean, jeans are a whole conversation. That silhouette and changing from how we've been programmed, I feel you. But even wearing something where you're like, I know this is cool, but it feels so different from what I like. The way the trends have changed. I do feel like that is one of the oddest things about getting older - suddenly realizing the clothes are so unfamiliar. Corinne is the baby of the podcast, so she might not be able to relate to that.
Corinne  
Kim, how old are you?
Kim
I'm 49. I turn 50 this year.
Virginia  
Ooh, exciting. When's your birthday? 
Kim
It’s a whole thing. I'm working through it.
Corinne  
Wait, what if you guys have the same birthday?
Kim  
I'm May 20.
Virginia
I'm April 30.
Kim
Oh, you're an April Taurus.
Virginia  
And that means a thing?
I feel that it is a whole thing about clothes. You're just like, It's making less and less sense. I'm trying, but I don't know.
Kim  
It's hard. I think we're just supposed to feel stupid.
Corinne  
Well, not to change the subject, but how do you feel about brownies? Are you an edge, corner or center of the pan person? 
Kim
Center. I can't deal with the edges.
Virginia  
Same. 
Kim
It needs to all be the same texture.
Virginia  
You've got to pair up with your edge people so that you can get the brownies you want.
Corinne  
Following up that groundbreaking question, peanut butter in the fridge or pantry?
Kim  
Pantry. I didn't know anyone put it in the fridge. But during the storm, we stayed at a hotel for eight days, and then we moved into someone's empty house, and they had their peanut butter in the fridge. I was like, are we supposed to be doing this?
Virginia  
Yes, that's what the Lord intended. I am.
Corinne  
I am also a fridge peanut butter person.
Kim
Are you supposed to?
Virginia  
Not from a food safety perspective, but it spiritually feels correct to me. It feels like it should be cold. I threw this in here because it was a recent poll on Burnt Toast and the people were against me on this. 
Corinne
Oh, wow. 
Virginia
When my boyfriend moved in, he was like, Why is the peanut butter in the fridge? What's happening? You're insane. And I was like, well, let's check with the public, assuming that my Burnt Toasties would rally around me. Instead they were all like, What are you doing? 
Corinne  
The only open stuff in my pantry is crackers and cookies. Open stuff goes in the fridge. 
Virginia
If it has a lid, it needs to be cold.
Kim
But what about hot sauce?
Corinne
Fridge.
Virginia  
Yeah, in the fridge.
Kim
We do, too. But I have started to think i'm not supposed to because, at restaurants, it's just on the table. 
Corinne
This is true. 
Virginia  
You have a good point. I'm not saying it's correct, but I'm saying it's correct. 
Another favorite Burnt Toast question that a reader submitted that we think is very fun to ask people is, which liquids would you want shooting out of your fingers? If you could have fingers that shoot liquids.
Corinne  
Each finger can be a separate liquid.
Virginia  
But also, if you don't want to think of five, it's fine. If you're like, I just want a Coke finger. That's all I need.
Corinne  
It could also be a liquid that's not something you drink.
Kim  
Like what?
Corinne
Gasoline. That's my new best answer. I would want gas to be able to shoot out of my finger.
Kim  
I did just had to buy a generator. I hope this episode doesn't give me PTSD when I listen to it in a month and remember how traumatized I am from the storm. I'll be like, Why did I keep mentioning generators and hotels?
Ok, I think it would be iced coffee, like a cold brew; Pamplemousse La Croix; honestly, orange juice. Love orange juice. Love an acid. That's it. Those are my three. I'm not a soft drink person.
Corinne  
Well, are you an electrolyte person?
Kim  
Oh, my God. I've been dying to talk to you about this. No, they're fake science, Corinne.
Corinne  
Well, fake science works for me.
Kim
No, I'm not. I used to be.
Corinne  
Talk to me when you come to high elevation.
Kim  
You know what? Honestly, that's fair. I have been in your part of the country a lot the last few years. We have to go to L.A. a few times a year. During COVID we couldn't fly, so we started driving, and now we are obsessed with driving cross-country.
Corinne  
Oh, wow. We really should talk.
Kim  
I didn't know you yet, but the last time we were in Albuquerque I told Virginia I wanted your phone number to ask you where to get a breakfast burrito. 
Corinne
Oh, my God! Yeah, you should have!
Virginia  
Corinne always has that intel.
Kim  
But no, the high altitude, that's legit.
Virginia  
I'm excited to have another electrolyte skeptic in the podcast. That's going to be helpful for me.
Virginia  
The beverage I will never be needing less of is Diet Coke. Are you pro or con Diet Coke, and if you are not pro Diet Coke, what do you drink?
Kim  
I'm pro Diet Coke, especially with pizza. I drink one on the days I'm at the bookstore. I just need one halfway through to keep going. I do love Diet Coke. I just wake up and drink coffee. That's typically it for the day, but if I'm out to eat or if I'm at work, I drink a Diet Coke. 
Virginia
Yeah, it's a nice little treat.
Corinne  
I just learned that there's a difference between Diet Coke and Coke Zero.
Virginia  
Obviously! There's a huge difference!
Corinne
But what is it? No one can really articulate it.
Virginia
The taste.
Corinne  
But why are they making two zero calorie Cokes?
Virginia  
Diet culture.
Kim  
I think it's gender. I think they think women want Diet Coke and men do not.
Virginia  
Men are drinking a manly Coke Zero? That doesn’t sound more masculine.
Corinne  
But what is the difference? Is it different sweeteners?
Virginia  
I am Googling it to get to the bottom of this. "Coke Zero aims to replicate the classic Coke taste using a blend of aspartame and acesulfame potassium." Diet Coke uses only aspartame.
Corinne  
So it is the sweeteners. They both have caffeine?
Virginia  
They both have caffeine. They both are calorie-free and sugar-free. Diet Coke is where you want to go for that pure aspartame hit, which is what I'm looking for. 
Corinne  
Speaking of Diet Coke, any other diet-y foods or habits that you've reclaimed?
Kim  
Recently, I've started eating Uncrustables, which I hadn't had for a long time. When I was doing Iron Man training, that was what you'd take on a long bike ride. So I've associated that with needing to refuel during workouts. But I've started eating them again.
Virginia  
They're so good. A great purse snack. I like to have one for errand running.
Kim  
I've also started doing that. I just throw them in there. They're great because the purse thaws it out.
Virginia  
Yes, exactly. I put it between my sunglasses case and my wallet. It gets nice and toasty.
Kim  
And honestly? Yogurt. I quit eating yogurt for a long time, but it turns out you can have yogurt for fun.
Corinne
Yogurt is good.
Virginia  
Especially if you can have the full fat yogurt.
Kim
Oh, my God. Game changer. I bought it on accident because they were out of the one I buy. I was like, Oh, it never occurred to me to switch.
Virginia  
The one thing RFK, Jr. and I agree on is full fat yogurt. The one overlap in our otherwise completely disparate Venn diagram circles.
Kim
That disgusting, broken clock of a man.
Virginia  
Any diet-y foods or habits that you'll never touch again that you're like, Nope, that ship has sailed?
Kim  
Turkey bacon and turkey sausage. 
Virginia
Let that go. Just, why?
Kim
I'm just going to eat pork if I'm going to eat pork. Oh, Lean Cuisine. Never bringing that back. All kinds of snacks. I could never eat a pretzel again for the rest of my life.
Corinne  
Oh, wow. I love pretzels.
Kim  
Or unbuttered popcorn. All those zero point foods.
Virginia  
The ones that I hear people fully reclaim are cottage cheese, but again, pivoting to full fat cottage cheese. Rice cakes surprisingly have a lot of devotees. That's one where I'm like, No thanks. People like the crunch. I don't know.
Kim  
The exercise stuff I remember more. All of that has just gone away. 
Corinne  
Never going to do another Iron Man? 
Kim
No, I am not. I just take little walks.
Virginia  
So much better.
Corinne  
Do you have any current favorite TV shows?
Kim  
Oh, my God. My favorite topic is television!
I am watching The Wire for the first time. I watched season one and I'm obsessed with it. I'm going to start season two as soon as I have internet in my house again.
I am a middle-aged white woman, so I love RuPaul's Drag Race. I am its main demographic. I'm watching that right now. There's a new season. And I'm watching The Pitt.
Virginia  
I can't watch The Pitt because of medical trauma, but I do think I would like it. I need a website that gives me spoilers, so I can pick and choose which episodes, then I can do it.
Corinne  
Our last question is what are you reading right now?
Kim  
Ooh, I'm reading Lindy West's next memoir that's about to come out in March. It's called Adult Braces.
Virginia  
🎉 Spoiler, but Kim did get Lindy to come on the pod soon. So get excited, folks!
Kim  
I've read all of her books. I think this is her fourth book and second memoir. Man, it's blowing me away. I love her writing, and this is beyond anything she's written before, not to disparage her other books, but this is a whole new level of vulnerability. It's so good. I'm reading Heated Rivalry, also. 
Corinne
Oh, fun!
Virginia  
I have both of those on tap to start as soon as I finish what I'm reading right now. I can't wait to read Lindy, and I can't wait to read the Heated Rivalry books, which I ordered from your friend's bookstore, Tropes & Trifles. 
Kim  
That's awesome. My friend Lauren owns that bookstore. She's great. Her bookstore is great.
Virginia  
It felt like a really good way to support Minnesota, and also my own need for more gay hockey after Corinne got me into Heated Rivalry.
Corinne  
Finally! It took so long. 
Virginia  
It did. People were so mad.
Kim
It took longer than it needed to.
Virginia
I know. I just missed it somehow. And then I was like, Okay, I'm here. I get it.
Kim  
I'm in a romance group chat. One of the people in the group chat is Lauren, who owns Tropes & Trifles. The first episode hit HBO, the group chat lit up. They all just said, "All of you, watch it now."
Virginia  
Like, just stop what you’re doing.
Kim
We have to talk about this collectively. So I watched it in real time. It was a mandate.
Corinne
Amazing.
Virginia
Delightful.
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Butter
Virginia  
Well, this was so fun. I'm glad we got to chat with you more. Before we wrap up, of course, we have to get you to give us some butter. What do you have for us?
(Editor's note: my mind went blank, so we skipped to Corinne and then came back to me.)
Corinne  
I'm going to recommend a book that I'm reading right now and really enjoying. It's called Long Bright River, and it's by Liz Moore, who wrote God Of the Woods that a lot of people read last year. I've been listening to the audiobook version and it's great. It's kind of a detective/crime situation, but there's a lot of twists and turns, and finding out things about the main character that you didn't know at the beginning. I'm really enjoying it. I'm also not quite done, so if something crazy happens at the end, don't blame me. I think I have only an hour left, so I feel pretty confident recommending it.
Kim
Do you know it's a TV show, too?
Corinne  
Oh no, I didn't, but that makes so much sense. I was listening to it and thinking it would make a great show. What is the show?
Kim  
Same name. It has Amanda Seyfried in it.
Virginia
Oh, I love her.
Kim
It's a great cast. It's actually a great show.
Corinne  
I'll have to check that out.
Virginia  
I love that book. Kim, do you want to go next?
Kim  
My butter is boba. I somehow had never had it even though there are great places all over Nashville that have it. But back to chicken tenders, near the place I live now, there's a little strip mall and it has a chicken tenders restaurant and a boba place. They're the only two things there. I went over there and they were so nice. They had me taste a bunch of stuff and they made me an iced coffee boba with a brown sugar top off. I'm obsessed with it. Anytime I'm there - it's actually across the street from where I am right now. Will I get one today? Yes, I will.
Virginia  
I think you need one after our morning.
Kim  
Why did I wait so long for boba? It's so fun and delicious.
Virginia  
I have to confess, I don't think I've ever had it.
Corinne  
This reminds me that there's an amazing TikTok of some guy trying boba for the first time.
Virginia  
I will endorse an item of clothing. It's fast fashion, which we know makes for a problematic butter, but I know I'm going to stand by this one because it is the third time I've bought this cardigan. It is the pranayama wrap from Athleta. I wear the 2x. It's roomy on me, but it only goes up to 3x. It's not a super size inclusive brand, but Corinne just said she doesn't care.
Corinne  
I never said that. I feel like a wrap is a flexibly sized item of clothing.
Virginia  
I agree. Athleta is a brand that frequently makes me mad because Old Navy is making plus sizes. You're the same company. The same as with Gap!
I am at the point in winter where my perimenopausal self is cold and hot at the same time, and I can't wear my sweaters because I'm so sweaty. It's a real thing. You just get to a point where your sweaters are too warm, but it's still cold, and what are you going to wear?
I've been getting more into the sweatshirt space, but even some of them are too heavy. This wrap is a really good one. It's lightweight, but it's warm, and it comes in different colors. I got this purplish-blue color on sale and I'm living in it.
My butter is a layer that you can actually be warm, but not die in.
Corinne
Amazing.
Kim
I support that.
Virginia  
Thank you, but I do acknowledge that it is not a great brand, and I would like them to make larger sizes.
Kim, this was a delight! Tell folks where they can follow you, at your website and the name you don't like.
Kim  
The Blonde Mule everywhere is me. As I mentioned, I bought that name.
Virginia  
She owns it.
Kim 
It’s easy to find me. TheBlondeMule.com is my newsletter where I write about books and pop culture. When I've got the bandwidth, I write essays. And then @TheBlondeMule on all the platforms.
Virginia  
You'll also find her in the Burnt Toast comments and Big Undies comments. And know that she is working a lot of magic behind the scenes here. You'll probably hear from her more every now and then, as well. 
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Thanks for listening to Burnt Toast. If you enjoyed the conversation, please support our work with a paid subscription. They start at just $5 a month, and you'll keep Burnt Toast an ad and sponsor free space. Learn more at https://www.patreon.com/virginiasolesmith/join.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.
This podcast is produced by Kim Baldwin. You can follow Kim at @theblondemule on all platforms and subscribe to her newsletter at The Blonde Mule.
The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.
Our theme music is by Farideh.
Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

Welcome to Indulgence Gospel After Dark!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it's time for your February Extra Butter episode!
Listen to hear about:
⭐️ Anti-diet GLP-1 life
⭐️ Who gets left out when the tradwife aesthetic takes over influencer culture
⭐️ Interrogating the ableism of not wanting to be on medication your whole life
Plus, serious stuff, like:
⭐️ Corinne in a prairie dress
⭐️ How long Virginia will last in a zombie apocalypse
⭐️ Why hot cheese is in for February
To hear the whole thing, read the full transcript, and join us in the comments, you do need to be an Extra Butter subscriber.
Join Extra Butter!This transcript contains affiliate links. If you're going to buy something we mention, shopping these links supports Burnt Toast at no extra cost to you!
Episode 232 Transcript
Corinne
Today we are talking about the state of GLP-1 discourse. A few recent media pieces have us wondering if the GLP-1 backlash is finally beginning, and if so, why is all of the coverage still so anti-fat?
Virginia
We're going to use two primary texts for this conversation, but I also want us to talk more generally about how we're seeing the conversation shift, because I feel like there's been an amorphous shift.
Corinne
I think the initial craze has died down and we're starting to see a more nuanced conversation.
Virginia
Which in many ways is good. There's more nuance on both sides, but there's still a lot of harm being done in the way the media is framing this conversation.
Corinne
For sure. 
Virginia
Exhibit A on that front is a piece by Dani Blum that ran on January 15 in the New York Times. The headline is The Hard Truth of Weight-Loss Drugs: You Probably Need Them Forever. Corinne what is your immediate first reaction to that headline?
Corinne
No shit, Sherlock. Why were people confused about this?
Virginia
I guess people were. It seemed obvious that if a drug makes you lose weight, and you go off the drug, you won't continue to lose the weight.
Corinne
Unfortunately, except for maybe antibiotics, that seems to be how drugs work. You have to stay on them.
Virginia
There's a lot that comes up for me in this piece. It's looking at new research, bringing to light the fact that when people go off the weight loss drugs, which many people do because they can't tolerate the side effects and it's too expensive, they just get tired of it. There are lots of reasons that people fatigue about being on a weekly injection drug. They're seeing now that people regain the weight. This is being framed as a grave disappointment and a surprise in the article.
Corinne
Not to me, but to Oprah.
Virginia
Oprah particularly. Oprah was surprised. They referenced the fact that even Oprah said that she had stopped taking a weight loss drug cold-turkey for a year and then gained back 20 pounds. "I tried to beat the medication," she told People Magazine. It was then she realized it's going to be a lifetime thing. 
Brilliant marketing for Weight Watchers, Oprah. She thought she could go off it, but you can't. You should be on it forever. So buy your GLP-1s from Weight Watchers. Of course she wants us to be on it forever. She has a business incentive to make that work. 
It gets into ableism. Why is it problematic to be on a medication for the rest of your life? I have asthma. I expect to use an inhaler to manage that for the rest of my life. 
I have sleep apnea. I expect to use a CPAP for the rest of my life. Most people with mental health conditions expect to be on an SSRI for the rest of their life. Why is that a problem?
Corinne
I think there's something about human nature where people think, I don't want to be on a medication for the rest of my life. I've heard so many people say that.
Virginia
Often it's the main resistance to starting a medication. Why? What is it about that that makes us sad?
Corinne
We want to believe that we're strong and independent and don't need pills to make us ok.
Virginia
You and I are going to wear glasses for the rest of our lives.
Corinne
I am extremely screwed. So many medications, so many glasses.
Virginia
If the zombie apocalypse comes, I'm out in the first week because if they break my glasses or I lose an inhaler, I'm sorry, I'm not going to try that hard to survive. Even my acid reflux medication - I don't have debilitating acid reflux - but it's irritating. I would be out.
Corinne
Same. 
Virginia
Take me now. 
Corinne
I take multiple medications every single day that I would be lost, if not dead, without.
Virginia
I don't understand the aversion to that because it's great that I get to breathe through the help of medication. I'm a big fan.
Corinne
I think what you're hinting at is it's ableism.
Virginia
It's ableism. We want to believe we can overcome these challenges. We see it especially in conditions that are weight linked in any way. This is why people get told to diet before starting a blood pressure or cholesterol medication when those drugs work really well to manage those conditions ...
Corinne
... and diets don't.
Virginia
And diets tend to not do so. Is it such a moral failing to have to go on a statin? I don't think so.
Corinne
The other thing they're not talking about directly is - and we've talked about this before - that studies show people who take these drugs for conditions like diabetes and/or insulin resistance, don't tend to stay on them long-term because they're hard drugs to be on. 
Virginia
Yeah.
Corinne
This article is so sad for people who got to lose weight on these because they will have to be on them forever if they want to "keep the weight off." It's also sad for people who need to take them to manage chronic conditions. These drugs suck in a lot of ways and people don't want to be on them.
Virginia
That's a valid reason to think, I don't want to be on a drug for the rest of my life if it's giving me terrible side effects. My inhalers don't give me terrible side effects. I just like breathing and want to do it all the time. I’m an oxygen addict. 
If it's a medication that's giving you side effects, I understand not wanting to be on it for life. For folks who are pursuing this just for weight loss, independent of metabolic health, maybe that's a reason to reflect on whether you need to do that. It is a depressing thing to say, "I will be on a medication that gives me diarrhea, fatigue or whatever side effects, but at least I can be a smaller size." That feels like something to reflect on. That reflection is nowhere in this article, however.
Corinne
The article doesn't mention side effects at all, does it? 
Virginia
It mentions that it's why a lot of people in the studies are going off the drugs. 
It's this Catch-22 where they're saying, Oh, people are saying, wow, it's so expensive, or, wow, I have terrible side effects, so I go off it. Then they're framing it like those people were quitters. That they gave up. 
On the other hand, some of this aversion around "you wouldn't want to be on this medication for the rest of your life" is another layer of anti-fatness. The message is we shouldn't let fat people get away with thinness this way. We don't want them passing for thin because they can stay on a GLP-1 forever. We want them to do the "real work" of weight loss.
The idea that you could only achieve weight loss by staying on the medication forever makes the weight loss feel fake to people. 
It's interesting because all intentional weight loss is fake to some extent. It's all manipulating your body in a direction it doesn't naturally want to go in. So why do we penalize medication-based weight loss versus excessive-running-based weight loss?
There's also a nice shout-out to RFK, Jr., who also thought the drugs would just be a short-term fix for people and then we'd go back to eating beef tallow to stay thin. Turns out that's not science, but I don't think we're surprised he's not science. 
Another flavor of anti-fatness in this piece is the casual normalization that you could do this the old fashioned way. In talking about folks who are able to lose the weight even after they go off, the article says:
It's not impossible, but it is extremely difficult. Dr Hauser estimates that fewer than 10% of her patients have successfully kept off 75% or more of the weight they lost after going on a GLP-1 without turning to another weight loss medication or undergoing bariatric surgery. "Those are the people that are working out two hours a day, tracking what they eat. They're working really hard," she said. "I haven't had anyone that just tapers off and isn't really putting that much thought into it and just keeps the weight off. I've never seen that happen."
That's just casual normalization of eating disorder behavior. Working out two hours a day and tracking what you eat is not a normal way to live.
Corinne
The choice is either drugs or an eating disorder.
Virginia
That's not interrogated by this piece, or in any of the discourse I've seen around the whole idea that you have to be on it forever. It's either you have to be on it forever, or we expect you to do this the old fashioned way, like a good fat person would.
Corinne
It's also getting into the Rosey Beeme of it all. She lost some weight with a GLP-1 and then was like, Well, I guess weight loss surgery is the way to go here.
Virginia
Right, to continue her health journey. I haven't checked on her in a while. Do you know how that's all going?
Corinne
No, I don't and I don't honestly want to know. I just think that will become a more common storyline where people are saying, I didn't want to stay on this drug. It didn't lead to permanent weight loss, but maybe bariatric surgery will.
Virginia
Well, that's depressing.
Corinne
Speaking of influencers, the second article that we wanted to discuss today ran at the beginning of January in Vulture. It's titled ‘Less People Click If You’re a Size 16’ How plus-size influencers are faring in a GLP-1 world.
Virginia
This one is paywalled. 
Corinne
I'm glad we're talking about this article because I saw so many people whispering about it on social media before I saw it, and then I saw a lot of folks sharing it. The gist of it is that plus-size influencers are not making as much money as before. They're not getting as many brand deals, etc.
Virginia
They're not getting brand deals from fashion brands and other lifestyle brands, which was interesting to me. The plus-size mom influencers, brands don't want them to show the car seat or the stroller anymore.
Corinne
I think a lot of plus-size influencers would make money from beauty skincare deals. That seems to be where a lot of the marketing money is. Even that area is slowing.
Virginia
The article talks about how one explanation, in addition to the rise of GLP-1s, is the rise of the tradwife aesthetic. An influencer named Joanna Spicer is interviewed quite a bit in the piece. She says:
People in the industry, according to Spicer, are “afraid to say anything. It’s being danced around. I’ve been told that I don’t fit the criteria to work with the brand because they’re more into the tradwife aesthetic. I’m like, ‘Got it.’”
With the tradwife aesthetic, a baseline of thin is a given, right? They're all willowy thin blondes like Ballerina Farm. It's interesting that it's not just thin, but the whole Little House On the Prairie conservative fundamentalist perspective. That’s what is trending right now. 
Corinne
It's very depressing. I like Joanna Spicer and that is not her aesthetic. There are plus-size influencers that lean more in that direction who are also suffering.
Virginia
Because they're not leaning enough in that direction.
Corinne
They're not living on farms in Utah. I also thought an interesting part of this was her saying that it's being danced around, that no one's straight up saying what's going on.
Virginia
On the flip side, we've also seen (and reported on) a lot of plus-size influencers becoming not plus-size, or attempting to become not plus-size by sharing their GLP-1 journey. While we've had valid criticisms of the way Rosey Beeme and others have articulated those journeys by using a lot of anti-fat rhetoric, I do understand that when you've made your body your business, and now the business is changing, you feel a lot of pressure to change your body to keep up with things.
Corinne
This article doesn't mention it, but there have been a couple of brands recently announcing they're not going to make plus sizes anymore, one of which is Christy Dawn, which is a big tradwife aesthetic brand.
Virginia
I never did get a Christy Dawn prairie dress while they made them in my size. Now I guess I never will.
Corinne
I did try one once. It's really not my aesthetic, but it didn't seem nice.
Virginia
I kind of wish you had photos. I really can't picture you in a tradwife dress.
Corinne
I put it on and was horrified.
Virginia
You had a reaction to that like I have to those boiler suit jumpsuits where I feel trapped, have a panic attack and I can't get them off.
Corinne
There was too much shoulder. I didn't like it.
Virginia
It's the whole milkmaid thing.
Corinne
I like my shoulders covered.
Virginia
Yeah, not your aesthetic. All of this tradwife aesthetic taking over influencer culture and who's getting brand deals also very much ties into how much this is driven by the political climate right now, which is obviously a dumpster fire. 
Here is another excerpt from the piece:
One vice president and an influencer marketing agency who asked to remain anonymous, said that while they haven't seen brands explicitly push back against working with plus-size creators. They are far more hesitant to sponsor any creator who gets even remotely political. What is acceptable now politically may not be in the future, and to avoid any issues, they don't want any voices that are not controlled internally from their side, he said.
That made me wonder if fat influencers are more likely to be left wing and progressive than thin influencers. We don't have any data, but my instinct is yes.
Corinne
They're probably more likely to be outspoken about size inclusivity, at least.
Virginia
People think fat liberation is not political or it's not considered part of political action, and it is part of it. They also wrote:
"The trend to move away from plus-size clothing aligns with the trend to move away from DEI. It’s all related,” says Monica Corbin, a stylist at a plus-size fashion brand. “We had this big explosion during COVID around inclusivity, and I just think there’s been the biggest backlash."
So what's happening in influencer culture is just a microcosm of our whole country right now?
Corinne
There is a part of this article that was so sad. Joanna Spicer was talking about how not being able to get work in your area of expertise makes you feel like a loser. That it's demoralizing and you feel like you've done something wrong. And you don't want to speak out about it because you don't want to screw yourself over in the future. It sounds so isolating.
Virginia
There's often a lot of pressure on influencers not to be transparent about the business model and the money, which is something we see in almost every female dominated industry. Anytime you have an industry that's majority women, people tend to be underpaid and you're encouraged not to talk about money, which is why all of my writer friends know I am extremely transparent about money. Because I feel like this is how any of us make any. It doesn't surprise me that people were so hesitant to go on record for this story because they think they have so much to risk if they say these brands are paying them less. But it also enrages me because these brands are treating you terribly. How else do we put pressure on them to do something different and make different choices?
Corinne
I don't know, but it's scary to do that now, especially when it feels like there's fear of political retaliation.
Virginia
Maybe this is me grasping at a strand of hope, but I do wonder if the fact that Vulture did this story is a positive sign. Will this kind of media coverage put pressure on brands to be more inclusive again? You could read this piece and think, What is Virginia talking about? There's no GLP-1 backlash. The fact that the piece exists feels like a tiny bit of backlash. Or am I just grasping?
Corinne
We'll see. It's probably going to take eight years, but I think at least some of the shine is off.
Virginia
It's hard to say that we're definitively in a backlash, or in a moment of change. I don't think we are. I think we are in a moment of increased nuance, and that's where we've landed. There's value in that. There's value in the conversations becoming more nuanced. 
The last piece we wanted to talk about was Amanda Richard's recent essay about her own experience taking GLP-1s and her take on where we are in this moment. It's called The return of thinness, without the reckoning. What are your thoughts on this piece?
Corinne
I thought it was really interesting. I read it this morning and haven't fully digested it. The most interesting part to me was this part near the end where she says:
What this moment reveals isn't hypocrisy, it's preference, preference for ease over effort, relief over reckoning, for changing bodies instead of changing the rules that they're judged by. Fat acceptance faltered not because it was wrong, but because it asked more of people than a weight loss transformation ever could.
She's getting at this moment in culture where people have lower tolerance than ever for friction. We want everything to be as easy as possible, myself included. That's not always what's best for the world, or even ourselves.
Virginia
She's arguing that we're not in a backlash, but that the rise of GLP-1s has legitimized the pursuit of thinness in new ways. She wrote:
What's changed isn't the desire to be thin, but the way that desire is explained. It no longer has to pass through shame, discipline or denial, instead arriving framed as care, responsibility and common sense. we've had moral alibis for thinness before diets, program, supplements, lifestyle changes, but they were always imperfect because they still smelled like wanting. They required visible discipline. They demanded effort. They asked people to accept failure when their bodies didn't cooperate. Medicine is a better alibi.
I thought that was pretty dead on.
Corinne
That's interesting, although we had health as an alibi before.
Virginia
We definitely did. But she's right that making it something that doctors prescribe, that you have to do, and you have to do in very specific ways in order to adhere correctly to it, does feel different from when doctors say, Try to lose some weight and, you know, walk more. It's vague and nebulous and pushes people over to diet culture.
Because you're accessing it through consumerism it feels more like something you want, like a choice you're making. There's aesthetic components. I'm doing this celebrity’s plan, you know. It feels legitimate now that you're doing it as a responsible choice for yourself because a doctor prescribed it. It's not to say that the medical choices people are making to do these drugs are always wrong, or that it's a bad choice for everybody. Again, it's a great medication for managing diabetes. 
Because all of the research dollars in the world go towards these drugs, they are discovering other new benefits of them, and that's great if we don't want people to not have those benefits. 
Corinne
We didn't mention that the whole premise of the piece is that she's taking a GLP-1 for a condition, and it has helped tremendously.
Virginia
She's had some weight loss as a side effect, but that wasn't the primary goal. Fat acceptance needs to keep making more space for those stories and that reality. That is why we added the Anti-Diet Ozempic Life chat room on Burnt Toast, because I was hearing from readers ashamed and confessing to me that they were on a GLP-1 and not having a place to talk about how to do that with integrity and in alignment with their fat liberation values. I was thought, Well, we're doing something wrong if we're making people feel bad about their own individual choices. That's what the other guys do. 
That's not what we're about. The conversations there have been fascinating and super instructive to me. I've learned a lot. Everybody who's navigating this, if you've identified that fat liberation is one of your values, you have a responsibility to interrogate this thing that Amanda's articulating, how much of this is a moral alibi for thinness, and what does that mean if you're using medicine as your alibi to achieve thinness because of all the other reasons that thinness is valued.
Corinne
Although, in our culture, how can you not? There's always some element of "Being thin is good? Being thinner Is better?"
Virginia
Being prettier? I'll have better access to things. I don't think wanting that for yourself is "wrong" because how could you not want it?
Corinne
It's the water we're swimming in. It's hard to make a neutral choice.
Virginia
There is no neutral choice. Articulating that tension to yourself is valuable versus just dressing it up in "I am doing this for x, y and z health reason. I don't care about being thin." Let's be honest. Of course we all care about that a little bit. 
We're in an interesting place with this stuff. I'm curious to hear what folks think. How you resonated with these articles and what else you're seeing in the discourse. I am glad for the increasing nuance and I wish mainstream media could spot its anti-fat bias even sometimes.
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Butter
Corinne
Do you have a butter for us?
Virginia
I have a very fun butter. My butter is that I just wallpapered my living room and I'm so excited. It's so pretty. 
Corinne
Oh, my God, it's beautiful!
Virginia
Isn't it such a pretty wallpaper?
Corinne
Wow. Where did you find that?
Virginia
It's a Graham & Brown wallpaper called Wallflower (affiliate link) from Wallpaper Direct. One of my home design influencer loves is Elsie Larson and she used this wallpaper in her house. I pinned it years and years ago. I thought I was not a wallpaper person and not a bold wall person. I've had white walls in all my homes forever because I change my mind a lot about color. I love color, but I like to be able to change things up. But this particular room does not get a lot of natural light. It often feels kind of gloomy and white walls were actually making it feel gloomier.
So I'm here to say, if you have a room without good natural light, go for some bold, saturated color, or a wallpaper that feels like it's going to make it darker, but it's actually going to make the room come alive.
Corinne
Wow, I love that. It's really pretty. It's like dark green background with pink and orange flowers on it.
Virginia
It feels like an English garden, which is all I ever want in the world, especially right now when my actual garden is under, I don't know, 14 inches of snow and ice. Being able to sit in my pretty, green, flowery living room is really helping my seasonal anxiety quite a lot. That's my butter. Put some pretty color on your walls.
Corinne
My butter is non-specific today, but I really want to recommend that anyone listening to this right now who needs something in their life goes and gets some queso.
I celebrated my birthday recently. I had some friends over for dinner and we got two different kinds of queso. It was so tasty, although the next day I did feel like I had a block of cheese in my stomach.
Virginia
There's always a little dice you roll with queso.
Corinne
It was fun to just stand around and dunk chips into hot cheese.
Virginia
You said there were two different kinds of queso. Say more, please.
Corinne
I live in New Mexico, and here we have our own specific culture, including our own specific type of food called New Mexican food. New Mexican queso is kind of liquidy. Don't think about what's in it. It's melted cheese and it usually has green chile in it. It's a little spicy and it comes with a bunch of chips. 
There's also Mexican food here, and I'm not a Mexican food expert, but Mexican restaurants have something called queso fundido, which is just straight up melted cheese. 
Virginia
No chile?
Corinne
No, and it's not going to be like liquid. It's the texture of melted cheese.
Virginia
Like if you scraped cheese off of pizza.
Corinne
Sometimes you can get toppings on it, so we had both New Mexican chile con queso and Mexican queso fundido.
Virginia
Oh, my God! Those both sound magical. Hot cheese sounds like something delicious we should all be eating.
Corinne
Hot cheese is in for February. 
Virginia
For February, be cozy in brightly colored rooms with hot cheese. What more do we need? There's weeks to go before the sun returns.
Corinne
Who needs sunshine when you have queso and wallpaper?
Virginia
Truly.
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Make sure you are following us in your podcast player. Scroll down wherever you're listening, tap the stars, five of them please, and leave us a review. That really helps us grow and helps new listeners find conversations like these.
Today's Indulgence Gospel is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.
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Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.
Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

You're listening to Burnt Toast. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today my conversation is with Dr. Lauren Muhlheim.
Lauren is a psychologist, a fellow of the Academy for Eating Disorders, a certified eating disorder specialist and approved consultant for the International Association of Eating Disorder Professionals. She's also a Certified Body Trust Provider and directs Eating Disorder Therapy LA, a group practice in Los Angeles. Lauren is the author of When Your Teen Has an Eating Disorder and a co-author of the brand new The Weight-Inclusive CBT Workbook for Eating Disorders.
Lauren joined me to chat about how she and her colleagues have been working to make eating disorder treatment less fatphobic, because, yes, that really needed to happen. We also get into why it's feeling harder than ever to treat eating disorders, or live with one, in this era of RFK, Jr., MAHA and GLP-1s.
Plus what to do if your child is hiding food, lying or otherwise showing signs of developing an eating disorder. When do you intervene? And how do you do so in the most supportive way possible?
If you enjoy this conversation, a paid subscriiption is the best way to support our work!
Join Burnt Toast
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Episode 231 Transcript
Virginia
I am really delighted. We have been, I guess I would say, colleagues in this space, or comrades in this space, for a long time.
Lauren
Comrades, for sure. 
Virginia
I've interviewed you for articles over the years. We're both in the fat activism world in various ways. You're someone I learn so much from. I'm very excited to have you here today. We are going to talk about your new workbook that comes out this month, called The Weight-Inclusive CBT Workbook for Eating Disorders. Do you want to give us a little background on how this workbook came to be? Then we're going to dive into my list of questions.
Lauren
I should introduce CBT for eating disorders. CBT stands for cognitive behavioral therapy for eating disorders, which is one of the leading treatments. I was trained in it back in the 1990s by one of the two main researchers who's credited with developing the treatment. Cognitive behavioral therapy looks at what's maintaining a problem in the present. It looks at the relationship between thoughts, behaviors and feelings, and helps to sort out ways to solve problematic behaviors related to eating. 
Fast forward to present day, we've learned a lot more about eating disorders than back in the '90s when I was trained in the model. When I was trained, it was very weight-centric, focused on primarily low weight and "normal weight." You know, thin-ish white women, and that's who was largely studied. 
But now we know so much more - that eating disorders affect all people, all genders, all ethnicities and all body sizes. As I've evolved as a clinician over the last 20 years, I've really become influenced by the weight inclusive movement, Health At Every Size and listening to people with lived experience who have experienced harm from traditional weight-centric treatments. 
So I have evolved. And in my mind I had modified what I was doing, and when I went back to look at the manuals, I was horrified to remember what was still in there that was really weight-centric. This has been a passion project for the last eight years. I've collaborated and talked to different people about it. I ultimately teamed up with two colleagues who were as passionate as I am, and we came up with the idea of modifying CBT to be weight inclusive.
We coined CBTWI to be weight inclusive, and we took the 30 year old manuals and updated them to be relevant to today and to speak to people in all size bodies. A lot of people come to us in bigger bodies and the old manuals were so harmful. You know, focusing on about being the right weight and other elements that were just not conducive to people in larger bodies when they go through this work.
Virginia
Can you give a specific example? For folks who've never been in eating disorder treatment, or just don't know the world well, it's like, 'What do you mean eating disorder treatments are not weight inclusive? Isn't that where you go to feel better about your body?' Give an example of what CBT used to do that was harmful, and how you've updated it.
Lauren
When I was trained in CBT, I always thought it was a non-diet approach, because the focus is on regular eating and including all foods. So the center of the model is still good. But some of the fatphobic elements that were in the original treatment were - one was this insistence on regular weekly weighing and the client knowing their weight. And that if the therapist refused to weigh the client weekly, it was the therapist's own anxiety and avoidance of tolerating the client's distress over being weighed. But if you're in a bigger body, being weighed is more than just exposure. It can be traumatic. 
Virginia
Yeah. 
Lauren
We don't need to put people through that, where every week they see their weight. So that's one of the first things that we eliminated. 
The other thing, there's behavioral experiments with a focus on challenging what they call the broken cognition. The broken cognition is this belief, and again, this was developed on primarily thin, white women who had the belief that if 'I eat a cupcake, I'll gain five pounds.' The behavioral experiment was to have them eat a cupcake, weigh them before and weigh them the following week, and prove that they didn't gain five pounds, but that's also hugely fatphobic. Because you're trying to prove to people that it's all in their heads, that weight stigma is not a thing.
Virginia
Well, and you're saying, 'Look, the scary, terrible thing didn't happen.'
Lauren
Which reinforces that that's the scariest thing.
Virginia
Even what you're saying, weighing folks in bigger bodies can be traumatic, not because inherently it's bad to be in a bigger body, but because if you're in a bigger body and you've been weighed in medical settings, you've had that number weaponized against you for so long. That's the trauma you're alluding to. 
Lauren
Yes, exactly.
Virginia
I see, so it was a lot of methodology around weight numbers meant to reassure thin women that 'Don't worry, you won't get fat.'
Lauren
Exactly.
Virginia
Which really leaves out any fat person with an eating disorder, and doesn't really do the thin women any favors either.
Lauren
Right. Because it just reinforces this fear that weight gain is the worst thing that could happen to somebody.
Virginia
That's fascinating. It sounds like a lot of very much needed updates and a really terrific resource for folks. I saw in the back of the workbook under Resources, you listed Burnt Toast as one of the newsletters with an online community dialogue. It means a lot to have us spotlighted in this way. We do work hard to have our chat rooms and safe spaces in the comment section for folks coming for support. You also listed a lot of folks that we love and look to as leaders in this space: Christy Harrison, Ragen Chastain, Rachel Milner, Sabrina Strings, Bree Campos, Chrissy King, etc. How do you think about the importance of community in the work you do with your clients as you've been reframing CBT in this way?
Lauren
We are big fans of yours and all the people you've named, and it was really important to us because here we are, three white women with privilege doing the updating of CBT and we wanted to take it further. 
It was really important to us that we learned from people with more marginalized identities. We negotiated with our editor to have sensitivity readers and we had people advising us on some of the things that we might not have been as aware of, like food insecurity, gender considerations, and the experience of people in larger bodies. As references, we tried to include some of the thought leaders that we've really learned from. 
Community is super important in this work because we're asking people to go against the grain of society. Many of the people that come to us for help with eating disorders are people in larger bodies who have been told by medical doctors and people in their lives to lose weight. And then they come to us and we say, 'Well, you're not eating enough.' And they think we're kind of crazy to say that. 
It really helps when you're asking people to do this work, which is so hard, to have other people in their lives who are supporting this. Many people don't have people in their personal lives who are anti-diet. Where do you find those people? A lot of it is online and in podcasts. I always tell people it helps, even if it's you and me and the person listening to the podcast. They're hearing the interviewer and the guest and there's two other people who are in this world with you. 
Virginia
That's right.
Lauren
It helps a lot. And I do think that is the missing piece for people in bigger bodies who experience disordered eating - they don't have the support.
Virginia
Especially right now. We're in a really dark cultural moment. You know, just like a swirling vortex of badness in a lot of ways. So it feels even harder, because what the federal government is telling us, what we're seeing in the news, etc, etc, is also running counter to what will actually promote healing. 
To that end, I'd love if we could talk a little bit about how you're thinking about your work in this dark time. We just had RFK’s latest USDA dietary guidelines come out.
Lauren, how are you feeling about the new food pyramid?
Lauren
Sadly, I feel like I am not going to be able to retire anytime soon. The culture just propagates and perpetuates disordered eating in so many ways. Obviously eating is so much more individualized than just following a guideline, but what I can say is that I have never seen a person with binge eating who was not restricting their carbs. 
Virginia
That’s really interesting.
Lauren
Carbs are basically the building blocks of what we eat, and they should be. A lot of the people who complain of what has now been popularized as the term "food noise," are not eating enough, and especially not eating enough carbs or starches. I expect that we'll see many more people coming in saying, 'I'm preoccupied with thoughts of food,' or 'I'm bingeing,' or 'I'm emotionally eating.' In our work, and what our workbook focuses on, is 'Are you eating enough regularly throughout the day? Are you including the various food groups? Are you eating enough starches and fats?' That's the mainstay of recovering from an eating disorder.
Virginia
Feeding your brain.
Lauren
Your brain needs glucose to think logically.
Virginia
Yeah, and not just at the tiny bottom point of the pyramid, but throughout the day. This is something I've learned from you that I want to make sure we say really clearly, because I think it's something people know but lose track of in their own work on these issues. Often folks come to you and say, 'I binge eat. I'm out of control with food.' When you start working with them your take is quite different.
Lauren
Right. All the eating disorders are really driven by restriction or not eating enough, and it's true that most people come to us and think they're eating too much. They're complaining about emotional eating or binge eating. 
As a cognitive behavioral therapist, one of the things that CBT therapists do is ask people to keep records. Early on I was taught to have people record what they're eating, and that really offers an insight into what's going on. In my group practice, we do a lot of training of more junior clinicians, including graduate students. It's really exciting to me when I have a graduate student who's been with me for a couple months, and I say, "Well, what do you think the diagnosis is?" And they'll say to me, "Well, I'm waiting to see the food records because the person's complaining that they're eating too much." But they know from having been through this a few times, that when you see what someone's eating, you see a lot of restriction, a lot of skipped meals, a lot of very sparse meals. 
People really do think they're eating so much because the culture is so focused on eating these very low intakes, and that's been kind of normalized on social media by wellness culture. People are really shocked when we tell them that they need to eat more, and that is the biggest part of it. Regular eating is kind of the antidote to all disordered eating. In our workbook, we're always like, 'Are you sure you're eating enough?' And I don't want to reinforce dieting by teaching someone strategies to prevent binge eating when they're not eating enough because I'm not going to be successful at that. Because that's the hunger drive and that's what keeps us alive. People may have short term strategies that work, but I definitely don't work on stopping the binge eating or the emotional eating until someone is really eating enough.
Virginia
Eating enough to support the idea that you would eat less at this one point in the day.
Lauren
And then most often, a lot of the binge eating and emotional eating decreases once people start to eat more regularly at meals and snacks. The food noise goes down.
Virginia
Let's talk about food noise. The rise of GLP-1s has really popularized that concept, but also, I would say, as you noted, misdefined it in many situations. How is all of that discourse impacting your work with your clients right now?
Lauren
It's definitely impacting us. We are seeing a lot of people coming in on GLP-1s, or contemplating GLP-1s. We always need to distinguish people who are on GLP-1s for medical conditions versus people on them solely for weight loss. 
One of the problems with being on them for weight loss is that they're on higher dosages, and that's where you get more side effects. We do get some people who come in complaining of binge eating or emotional eating, and then they're on a GLP-1 and they suddenly have no appetite. It's harder to get them to eat enough throughout the day.
Virginia
Right. If you're trying to go back and say, 'Wait, let's look at where you're restricting,' and now they can't access any appetite to eat.
Lauren
Or they're nauseous and throwing up. 
Virginia
Oh, God.
Lauren
We have been successful in a number of cases in helping our clients advocate for their doctors to actually lower their doses. Sometimes that helps, but there's a lot of nuance, right? I think we don't know enough about the full impact of these medications. Might there be some benefit for people with eating disorders in certain circumstances? Maybe. But it's a scary thing, and it definitely makes our work harder when we're focused on trying to get people to eat regularly throughout the day.
Virginia
That concept's been getting a lot of media attention, GLP-1s as an eating disorder treatment. But it sounds like you have major reservations about that idea.
Lauren
Because it does the opposite of the work we're trying to get people to do. Cognitive behavioral therapy is the best validated treatment. It was developed in the '90s and there's a lot of research to support it. The model is regular eating, including all foods, not being restrictive. And symptoms typically get better. We know that with weight loss, most people don't keep weight off long term.
Virginia
Right, and most people aren't able to stay on these drugs long term is also what we're seeing in a lot of research now.
Lauren
We do see some people who have been on GLP-1s and then they go off them and their weight is increasing and maybe the binge eating is coming back and starting again. It's a bit of a quick fix. That doesn't solve the problem.
Virginia
It's just rooted in that old thinking of binge eaters must eat too much, take away their appetite, solve binge eating, as opposed to what you've been steadily making the case for. And all the evidence is showing binge eaters are responding to restriction. And so a drug that encourages more restriction, how would that long term solve binge eating? 
I would love to also talk a little bit about managing eating disorders and disordered eating in kids. You specialize in teenagers. Whenever I have a reader or a friend, as I now parent a middle schooler, reach out with concerns. I'm always like, 'Check out. Dr. Mulheim's work. This is your first stop.'
You're a big proponent of Family Based Treatment, FBT, for adolescent eating disorders. On your website you wrote, "I do not believe that parents cause eating disorders, but I know they can be an important part of the solution. Hence, I'm an advocate for the inclusion of parents in the treatment of their children."
Let's talk a little bit about how parents can help. What behaviors and symptoms do you take seriously? How do you be part of that solution?
Lauren
The first thing is that eating disorders in children and teens is harder to spot than you think. My advice to parents is, if you have concerns, definitely check them out. Some of the signs we see are stopping eating certain foods, eliminating dessert or not eating meals and saying they've already eaten. We may not see weight loss in in a child or a teen. They may just fail to gain, because remember, they're supposed to be gaining over time. Sometimes they're growing and they're not gaining, and that's the equivalent to weight loss in an adult. 
We also see things like social withdrawal. What looks like depression, poor sleep, or loss of interest in activities. It can look like depression or anxiety. Or complaints of stomach aches. A lot of parents go down the gastrointestinal route, trying to figure out what's going on. It can be very confusing. Family based treatment is a wonderful evidence based treatment. It was developed at Stanford and it's a manualized treatment that basically allows teens to recover in the home. Because traditionally, teens were pulled out of the home. Parents were blamed. There was this saying about how it was always the mother's fault.
Virginia
Of course. Clearly.
Lauren
Clearly following on the trend of the schizophrenogenic mother, the autistic mother.
Virginia
We cause autism. We cause eating disorders. 
Lauren
That has really perpetuated. I still meet people who say it must be the parents. I try to remember we're all in this culture and parents are doing their best. Parents are getting diet messages from all these other health professionals in our culture. I try to remember that they become the messengers of the cultural message. There is often dieting in the home, but does that cause eating disorders in itself? No. And we see that because not all siblings develop an eating disorder. A lot of parents diet and their kids don't develop eating disorders. We have to give parents a chance. The great thing about FBT is it's done through family meals and normalizing eating all foods. It's a great chance for families to come together. 
I find it very powerful when the parents are unlearning their diet culture with their teens. They're able to do that. Sometimes it's a little bit of a hard wake up call, but most parents can get on board pretty quickly. It's really powerful when you see a whole family change the way they've been eating. It gives the parents a chance to learn the information. Whereas if the teen goes off to residential, the family doesn't come along and then the teen goes back into that home, so it's challenging. It's a lot of work for parents because they become the treatment team. 
Virginia
It is a lot of sitting at the table with a kid who doesn't want to eat, which, any parent, regardless of whether they've managed an eating disorder, can tell you that's a nightmare. That's really hard to do and often it can feel counter to some of the other messages we get. If you're looking at the Ellen Satter model of feeding kids, it will be very much not forcing kids to take bites, and in FBT, when you have a kid refeeding after a lot of restriction, you do have to require them to eat. And that feels really strange. 
Some of the interviews I've done with families who've done this, it is so moving to hear the parents work through their own stuff and come together in a different way to support the child. It's pretty transformative.
For parents who are noticing some of the early symptoms, like hiding food, or kids may be lying about what they're eating, how do you recommend parents manage things in those stages? Like, okay, I'm keeping an eye. I'm probably going to talk to the pediatrician. Probably going to, you know, do I need to level this up? And also, how do I react in the moment to some of this stuff?
Lauren
With as much compassion as they can, and in a non-shaming way. If you think that you know your kids are lying about what they're eating or hiding food, we really want to just encourage them to eat more with you. Which, again, this comes back to all eating disorders require people to eat more. If someone's hiding food, maybe they're not getting enough at meals. If someone is refusing to eat meals, they're not getting enough at meals. It's a good chance for parents to be more watchful, to try to make sure that meals are eaten and that teens and children have access to a variety of foods. That they're getting their nutritional needs met. 
A lot of parents, again, because the cultural messaging is so intense, think people should be eating less. If you've taken care of a growing teen, you see how much they need.
Virginia
How much your grocery bill has increased.
Lauren
Parents may not be aware that their teens are supposed to be going through growth spurts. I do some trainings with Rebecca Peebles, who's an amazing pediatrician, and she emphasizes how teens are supposed to gain about 50 pounds as they go through puberty. Where are you going to get that weight if you're not eating enough. The growth pattern for a lot of kids is to grow out before they grow up. There's supposed to be this weight gain. We observe teens who are starting to gain weight to fuel this growth, and then someone panics, whether it's the pediatrician or a parent or the child themselves, and they start to restrict. That's the prime time for when anorexia can strike. If they had been left alone, they would have just gained and grown. Now you have to do all this work to get them back to that weight so that they can start to grow again. 
Virginia
I think that's so helpful to normalize. This is what we want our kids to be doing. I'm parenting middle schoolers and I am shocked sometimes how fast a group of 12 year olds can empty the snack cabinet or the ice cream freezer, but this is what we want them to be doing right now. 
When you see that hiding food behavior, parents often think they need to correct that behavior, instead of stepping back and thinking about what led to the hiding. And is this a food that you've given a message they shouldn't have as much of? Or as you're saying, are there other parts in the day where they're not getting enough? I also think a lot about the schedules these kids are under. They're at school all day, then they're going to sports or play rehearsal. My kid was out of the house for 12 hours yesterday. She was starving when she got home, and if you are coming with a diet mindset, you might be alarmed by that. But it completely makes sense that she didn't have enough time to eat during her school day and needed to make up for it. 
Lauren
Yeah. 
Virginia
Well, this is so helpful. Your work is reassuring and grounded. Whether folks are dealing with an active eating disorder or not, if you're parenting teens, if you're working on your own stuff with food, Lauren's work is an incredible resource. The workbook is really great, so thank you for that.
Lauren
Thank you. 
🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈🧈
Butter
Virginia
So we wrap up every episode of Burnt Toast with butter, which is our recommendation segment. Do you have any butter for us today?
Lauren
I've been having a lot of fun with gardening fruit trees in Los Angeles. It's been really fun. I just recently pruned a peach tree to get it ready to hopefully bud and produce fruit. Peach trees have to be shaped in a certain way. You don't want the central leader you've got to have key branches. So I studied, and then you have to reduce the fruit, which is very sad.
Virginia
Oh, you have to cut off baby fruit. 
Lauren
You have to cut off baby fruit because otherwise it just produces too much. You want to select which peaches are going to get bigger. That's been fun. And I'm growing an avocado tree. Pretty soon I have to go outside and spray it with sugar water to encourage the bees.
Virginia
Amazing.
Lauren
To hopefully pollinate it. I love that. I've been hand pollinating my passion fruit vine, which is a whole other thing.
Virginia
I am so jealous that you can do all of this outside. I am currently raising a indoor orange tree because I live in New York and it is 20 degrees today. It is stressful. I have to tell you, Lauren, I don't think she's living her best life right now. I mean, who among us is in this time of year, but I just added a humidifier because I got a hygrometer. She was starting to lose leaves and her humidity was only 22% because it's so cold, even inside my heated house. It's so cold and dry.
So my butter is going to be my humidifier for my orange tree. I'm hopeful, because she's got fruit on her, and it's starting to ripen, but she's dropping leaves because the air is too dry. It's high stakes over here right now with the orange tree.
Lauren
Being able to grow outside. 
VIrginia
It's more logical than what I'm doing, but I just love the idea of fruit trees. We do have, in my garden outside, blueberry bushes, raspberry bushes, all that stuff. But I wanted year round joy.
Lauren
In California we have to get the no freeze hours berries.
Virginia
It's a whole different world over there. Fascinating. Well, yay! Here's for fruit trees for everybody! I don't know if I want to recommend everybody get an indoor fruit tree, because it is quite a project, but she is bringing me a lot of joy, as well as I'm stressing and over there filling her humidifier twice a day.
Lauren
Right? It’s a lot of work to take care of these trees.
Virginia
But I'm on it.
Lauren
I'll be back spraying my avocado tree with sugar to invite the bees.
Virginia
You know what? There's also something to be said for an obsessive hobby right now to just give you a little thing to focus on. I can do this. I can spray this tree with sugar water. Because there's a lot we can't control. So you know what? Fruit tree farming seems like a great use of energy. 
Lauren
And then you get to eat them. 
Virginia
Yes, exactly, and that's what I'm really excited for. And make delicious beverages and whatnot.
Lauren, tell folks where we can find you. How we can support your work.
Lauren
My website is https://www.eatingdisordertherapyla.com/. That's where my group practice information is, and my books are listed there. I have blog with a lot of resources for people with eating disorders, and for parents. My books are available wherever you buy books. They're both by New Harbinger Publications and The Weight-Inclusive CBT Workbook for Eating Disorders is available now.
Virginia
Amazing. We'll link to all of that. Thank you for being here.
Lauren
Thank you so much for having me.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. You can follow Virginia on Instagram at @v_solesmith and on Bluesky at @virginiasolesmith.bsky.social. You can follow Corinne on Instagram at @selfiefay, on Bluesky at @corinnefay.bsky.social and on Patreon at Big Undies.
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