Scaling Theory is a podcast dedicated to the power laws behind the growth of companies, technologies, legal and living systems. The host, Dr. Thibault Schrepel,...
David Krakauer is an American evolutionary biologist. He is the President and William H. Miller Professor of Complex Systems at the Santa Fe Institute. As you will hear in today’s episode, David's research centers around a series of fundamental questions, such as: How did life and intelligence evolve in the universe? How do ideas evolve and how do they encode natural and cultural life?In this conversation, David and I explore the evolving landscape of complexity science. We discuss its foundational theories, emerging patterns, and intersections with AI and machine learning. We delve into the paradigm shift complexity science represents, its most significant contributions across disciplines, and how computational advances are reshaping its trajectory. We also talk about AI’s potential to scale towards AGI through a complexity lens, the limits imposed by evolutionary principles, and what this means for artificial systems. Finally, as President of the Santa Fe Institute, David discusses SFI’s unique interdisciplinary model. I hope you enjoy the conversation.You can follow me on X (@ProfSchrepel) and BlueSky (@ProfSchrepel) to receive regular updates.References: Unifying complexity science and machine learning (2023) https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/complex-systems/articles/10.3389/fcpxs.2023.1235202/full The debate over understanding in AI’s large language models (2023) https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5f29a430a2b6a34680879cc0/t/672467763ec35e0639db8457/1730439030537/DK-DebateOverUnderstandingInAIsLLMs2023.pdf Darwinian demons, evolutionary complexity, and information maximization (2011) https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5f29a430a2b6a34680879cc0/t/6725792b7d0d4f0e4e7ca2fe/1730509104265/DK-DarwinianDemonsEvolutionaryComplexity%26InformationMaximization2011.pdf
--------
51:57
#15 – Larry Lessig: Code, Law, and Business Models in the Age of AI
My guest today is Larry Lessig, Professor of Law and Leadership at Harvard Law School. Larry is the author of numerous influential books and articles, including Code 2.0 (2006), which we discuss at length in this episode. If you have been listening to Scaling Theory since the very beginning, you probably remember that I cited a couple of books that changed my perception of everything in the first episode. Code 2.0 is one of these books. Larry Lessig develops what he calls the “pathetic dot theory,” in which he explains that all things are influenced by four constraints: the law, economic forces, norms, and architecture.
In this conversation, Larry and I talk about the importance of these four constraints in the digital economy and assess which ones have scaled the most in recent years. We also explore how complexity science can contribute to Larry’s theory by seeing the dots and their constraints as a complex network. We then steer our conversation toward open source in AI, examine how regulation at the hardware layer could solve software issues, and consider whether we can trust our institutions and current regulations to do so, or if we need to scale other institutions for that purpose. I hope you enjoy our discussion.
References:
Code 2.0 (2006) https://lessig.org/product/codev2/
Code (1999) https://lessig.org/product/code/
You can follow me on X (@ProfSchrepel) and BlueSky (@profschrepel) to receive regular updates.
--------
46:59
#14 – Eric Beinhocker: “New Economics” Is Coming For You
My guest today is Eric Beinhocker, Professor of Practice in Public Policy at the Blavatnik School of Government, University of Oxford, and the founder and Executive Director of the Institute for New Economic Thinking at the University’s Oxford Martin School. Eric is the author of numerous academic articles and books, including The Origin of Wealth: Evolution, Complexity, and the Radical Remaking of Economics (2007).
In our conversation, Eric and I contrast traditional economics (neoclassical theory) with new economics (complexity economics). We also explore the policy implications of these differing economic theories, discussing topics ranging from aggressive growth strategies to complexity catastrophes in digital economies. I hope you enjoy our conversation.
References:
The origin of wealth: Evolution, complexity, and the radical remaking of economics (2007) https://moldham74.github.io/AussieCAS/papers/Origins of Wealth.pdf
Getting Big Too Fast: Strategic Dynamics with Increasing Returns and Bounded Rationality (2007) https://pubsonline.informs.org/doi/pdf/10.1287/mnsc.1060.0673
Fair Social Contracts and the Foundations of Large-Scale Collaboration (2022) https://oms-inet.files.svdcdn.com/staging/files/Fair-Social-Contracts-Beinhocker-v8-22-22.pdf
Reflexivity, complexity, and the nature of social science (2013) https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1350178X.2013.859403
--------
47:05
#13 – Kevin Kelly: How Technology Evolves, And What To Do About It
My guest today is Kevin Kelly, the author of 14 books, a public speaker who has delivered TED talks with tens of millions of views, and a technology expert. In 1983, Kevin was hired by Whole Earth founder Stewart Brand to edit several later editions of the Whole Earth Catalog, the Whole Earth Review, and Signal. He later on served as the founding executive editor of the magazine Wired.
In our conversation, Kevin and I talk about the scaling laws behind all technologies, but also how these laws intersect with biology, society, and policy. We explore themes from What Technology Wants, we focus on the 'Triad of Evolution' and the concept of convergence, and connect these ideas to antitrust and innovation policy. I also touch on his earlier work, including New Rules for the New Economy, where we discuss the dynamics of trust in network economies and its implications for technology adoption. Finally, we delve into the inevitability of technological evolution, its accelerating diffusion, and what happens when technology becomes ubiquitous in society. These questions feel increasingly urgent as we approach 2025, a pivotal moment for revisiting these ideas in light of modern developments. I hope you enjoy our discussion.
Find me on X (@ProfSchrepel) and BlueSky (@profschrepel.bsky.social).
References
Kevin Kelly, What Technology Wants (2010)
Kevin Kelly, New Rules for the New Economy (1998)
Rishi Bommasani et al., Considerations for Governing Open Foundation Models (2023) https://hai.stanford.edu/issue-brief-considerations-governing-open-foundation-models
--------
35:14
#12 – Rory Linkletter: Scaling Up to the Olympics
My guest today is Rory Linkletter, a professional athlete who recently ran the Paris Olympic Marathon and the New York Marathon. Rory’s current personal best in the marathon is an impressive 2:08:01, which makes him the top Canadian marathon runner and the third-best Canadian performance ever.
This episode, as you might guess, is different from the others. I wanted to talk to Rory because he inspired me greatly when I went to Paris to watch the race. Most importantly, I am convinced that there is much we can learn from professional athletes, especially marathon runners.
In our conversation, we explore how Rory scaled his mental and physical abilities. I draw many parallels with the academic and policy worlds, delving into what we can learn from his process, the power laws he has identified, and his relationship with science.
Scaling Theory is not turning into a running podcast, but, true to its mission, it remains focused on exploring the scaling laws behind everything—be it economic, technical, or biological systems. Rory opens new doors regarding this last subject. I hope you enjoy our discussion.
Scaling Theory is a podcast dedicated to the power laws behind the growth of companies, technologies, legal and living systems. The host, Dr. Thibault Schrepel, has a PhD in antitrust law and looks at the regulation of digital ecosystems through the lens of complexity theory. The podcast is hosted by the Network Law Review. It features scholarly discussions with select guests and deep dives into the academic literature.
Netherlands