The Power of Music Thinking

In Episode 77 of The Power of Music Thinking, host Christof Zürn speaks with ethnomusicologist, gamelan teacher, AI scholar and senior lecturer Dr Pravina Manoharan (Universiti Sains Malaysia) about music in the context of people, leadership, and technology.
 
In this episode:
• The Beach Harmonium – Shifting from Western piano to the hand-pumped Indian harmonium.
• Tamil Hip-Hop – How diaspora communities in Malaysia used multilingual hip-hop as a political voice.
• The Startup & The Gamelan – Why rotating roles in a gamelan ensemble teaches cross-functional leadership and ensemble listening.
• Cultural AI Bias – The risks of AI platforms misrepresenting non-Western music and flattening cultural sounds.
• Refugee Empowerment – Helping Rohingya refugee children learn English and process trauma through a musical adaptation of The Jungle Book.
"Imagine you are part of a startup. You don't necessarily have to play all the instruments at once, but you need to know their functions so that when everyone plays together, you learn how to listen to everybody else." – Dr Pravina Manoharan
 
Full show notes on:
https://musicthinking.com/the-startup-and-the-gamelan-shared-leadership-tamil-hip-hop-and-cultural-ai-bias-with-pravina-manoharan/
 
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Furthermore, join our monthly email newsletter to get the latest episodes, archive highlights, the Jam Card of the month, and more. 👉 https://musicthinking.substack.com/

Can you hear inaudible sound? What has romantic composer Robert Schuhmann in common with Yoko Ono?
Beyond traditional music, inaudible melodies and complex acts of perception carry profound insights for how we think, communicate, and lead.
Today, Music Thinker Chrstof Zürn sits together with music professor, musicologist, and author Kate Doyle to unpack the hidden dimensions of listening. Specifically, we explore how listening differently reveals deep connections between music, second-order cybernetics, and human empathy.
In this episode, we dive into:

Inaudible Melodies & Yoko Ono: How Robert Schumann wrote an "inner voice" into his score that was never meant to be played out loud, and why Yoko Ono's mental text scores in Grapefruit train our capacity for complex listening.

Second-Order Cybernetics: The practice of listening to listening and observing the observer, and how taking responsibility for our descriptions changes our relationship with complex systems.

Vedic Sound Gradations: Exploring ancient Indian theories where sound exists across gradations far beyond what human ears physically register.

The Practice of Listening: Why Kate teaches active listening to non-music undergraduates in business, computer science, and pre-med to cultivate empathy and better collaboration.

Full show notes (it is a long list this time) on:
https://musicthinking.com/cybernetics-yoko-ono-and-inaudible-sound-with-kate-doyle/ 
 
Join the Community: If you are enjoying this conversation, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast player! Furthermore, join our monthly email newsletter to get the latest episodes, archive highlights, the Jam Card of the month, and more. 👉 https://musicthinking.substack.com/

Pack your headphones and join host Christof Zürn for an immersive special episode. We travel across Europe to explore how deep, mindful listening can transform our perspective on space, time – and leadership.
In this episode:

The Venice Biennale: Field recordings from the 61st Art Biennale themed In Minor Keys. Explore the subtle soundscapes of wind, water, and interactive installations across the Belgian, Finnish, Romanian, and Polish pavilions.

The Vatican Pavilion: A contemplative spatial walk through the The Ear is the Eye of the Soul exhibition in the Giardino Mistico. Discover how movement-sensitive headphones blend 12th-century scores by Hildegard von Bingen with contemporary sounds by Brian Eno, Patti Smith, Terry Riley, and AI artists Herndon and Dryhurst.

Vitra Campus: Experience near-binaural recordings inside the contemplative Doshi Retreat in Weil am Rhein, designed by Balkrishna Doshi, where gongs and flutes erase the boundaries between self and architecture.

John Cage and The Long Now: Journey to Halberstadt, Germany, to learn about the 639-year-long performance of Organ2/ASLSP, As Slow as Possible, which runs until the year 2640. Plus, hear how Christof uses Cage’s silent piece 4'33" as a team-building tool.

What are the "minor keys" – the quiet, overlooked voices – in your personal life, team, or organisation that need closer listening?

Subscribe to our podcast and join the community on Substack to receive monthly updates, Jam Card prompts, and leadership assets: https://musicthinking.substack.com 
 

Show Notes and Links

Venice Biennale Website: https://www.labiennale.org/en/art/2026 

Hildegard von Bingen on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen 

Hans Ulrich Obrist Interview in Arts of the Working Class: https://artsoftheworkingclass.org/text/a-conversation-with-hans-ulrich-obrist-and-ben-vickers-on-hildegard-of-bingen 

Giardino Mistico Website: https://www.giardinomistico.it/blog/2020/06/01/riapre-il-giardino-mystico/ 

Giardino Mistico Free Registration: https://www.coopculture.it/it/eventi/evento/lorecchio-e-locchio-dellanima/ 

Herndon and Dryhurst Exhibition at K21 Düsseldorf: https://www.kunstsammlung.de/en/exhibitions/holly-herndon-mat-dryhurst-en 

Doshi Retreat at Vitra Campus Website: https://www.vitra.com/en-un/campus/news/details/doshi-retreat 

Organ2/ASLSP Project Page: https://www.aslsp.org/das-projekt.html 

Sabine Groschup’s Experimental Film: https://vimeo.com/637619443 

Related Podcast – Soundwalk in the Summer: https://musicthinking.com/sound-walk-in-the-summer-with-christof-zurn/

Chapter markers:
00:00:00.000 Opening sounds
00:00:46.000 Intro Music Thinking
00:02:03.000 The Sounds of Venice
00:03:35.000 Biennale di Venezia
00:04:44.000 In Minor Keys - Koyo Kuoho
00:06:23.000 Music Thinking
00:07:33.000 Belgium
00:08:38.000 Finland
00:10:36.000 Romania
00:11:57.000 Poland
00:14:14.000 Reflection
00:15:35.000 Giardino Mistico
00:20:55.000 Precious Okoyomon
00:23:22.000 More Biennale
00:25:25.000 benefits - Music Thinking
00:26:49.000 Balkrishna Doshi Vitra Campus
00:33:16.000 Halberstadt
00:34:33.000 John Cage
00:35:38.000 Using 4'33'' in a Workshop
00:37:44.000 Organ2/ASLSP
00:41:58.000 Reflecting Exercise
00:44:37.000 Before we go

What does basketball truly sound like? Beyond the simple squeak of a sneaker, the soundtrack of sports carries profound socio-cultural and economic stories.
Today, ethnomusicologist and sound artist Jordan Zalis unpacks the hidden sonic layers of the NBA. Specifically, we explore how listening differently reveals deep connections between sports, music, and business leadership.
 
In this episode, we dive into:

The Sneaker Squeak: How this sound signifies both real-time improvisation and the global circulation of capital.

Creative Constraints: Why the strict rules of basketball mirror musical boundaries to unlock infinite creativity.

'Just Listening': An aural Rorschach test that turns everyday sounds into profound emotional memories.

The Monk Offence: How championship-winning coach Nick Nurse applied jazz principles to basketball. Learn why treating your team like a "permanent jam session" fosters true spontaneity.

Join the Community: If you are enjoying this conversation, please hit the subscribe button on your podcast player! Furthermore, join our monthly email newsletter to get the latest episodes, archive highlights, the Jam Card of the month, and more. 👉 https://musicthinking.substack.com/ 
 
Show Notes & Links:

Connect with Jordan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanzalis/ 

Jordan Zalis website: https://jordanzalis.com/

Read Jordan's paper investigating the sociocultural implications of basketball: https://revistas.um.es/reg/article/view/716281

More about The Power of Music Thinking: musicthinking.com

Episode Chapters:
00:00 Opener and Nick Nurse quote
03:57 First Sonic Memory: A Lullaby in Harmony
09:06 Ethnomusicology and the Soundtrack of Sports
10:33 Grassroots Soccer Chants vs. Corporate Spectacles
19:24 NBA, Basketball and Popular Music
23:00 Recording with Binaural Microphones
30:39 What Does Basketball Sound Like? (Creativity & Constraint)
39:40 Deconstructing the Sneaker Squeak
45:30 Deep Listening and the Aural Rorschach Test
47:47 The Just Listening Workshop & The Bouncy Ball
54:10 Workshop Exercise
01:01:07 Global Basketball Cultures and NBA Expansion
01:07:36 The Monk Offense: Leaders as Jam Session Directors
01:09:42 Outro and Show Notes

Intrinsic motivation, leadership, and extreme performance are at the heart of this podcast episode, where Christof Zürn deconstructs the mental models of exceptional individuals who perform at the top of their fields and also happen to be musicians. This conversation explores the profound links between leading academic scientists and playing historical string instruments - featuring expert research, unique mindsets, and the intense discipline you can leverage as a toolkit for your own path.

Meet the Guest: Ralph Meulenbroeks has lived a fascinating, multitrack life. He started his career in physical engineering, researching large-scale solar cells, before pivoting to become a full-time, professional bass and viola da gamba player for ten years - recording 15 albums, winning an Edison award, and touring the world. 

Today, he is a full professor of scientific literacy and chairs the Freudenthal Institute at Utrecht University, where he leads 120 highly autonomous academics. Yet, every single morning, his day still starts with meditation and playing his instrument.

Key Insights from the Episode

The Pressure of the Passion: Discover the unique qualities of the viola da gamba - a historical, fretted relative of the lute family with six or seven strings - and what it feels like to endure the immense psychological pressure of playing the highly exposed solos in Bach's St. Matthew Passion.

Tuning In under Pressure: How the intense process of silently tuning highly sensitive gut strings during a 45-minute wait in the St. Matthew Passion translates directly to 'tuning in' to the emotional temperature of a team of academics at the start of a meeting.

Redefining Intrinsic Motivation: Why almost everyone misinterprets this term. Ralph explains that true intrinsic motivation means the activity is its own reward - not a means to an end - and why it is an incredibly robust predictor of high performance in teams.

Ensemble Forgiveness: Why the ultimate leadership tool is behaving like a classical or free jazz ensemble. When a mistake happens, you cannot point fingers; you must instantly forgive, adapt, and restore the balance together so the audience never notices.

The 'No Excuses' Mindset: Why playing a difficult instrument forces a high degree of self-reflection. If a wrong note happens, it is almost always the player and rarely the instrument's fault - a humbling lesson every leader needs to embrace.

The Macrobiotic Chord: How a 35-year practice of macrobiotic cooking and balancing Yin and Yang perfectly mirrors the tension and relaxation required to create musical, but also business harmony.

Show notes:

Connect with Ralph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ralphrousseau/ 

St. Matthew Passion Excerpt (Komm, süßes Kreuz): https://youtu.be/WvHTBBLXa-g?si=HIv_K-6ZxzMGt50u 

Podium Klassiek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzWjGyjIAQ8 

The Jazz of Physics by Stephon Alexander: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/26195938-the-jazz-of-physics

Music Thinking Society on Substack: https://musicthinking.substack.com/ 

More info and downloads on Music Thinking: https://musicthinking.com