WTF is with Nikhil Kamath

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We scan a QR code, enter a PIN, and move on. I wanted to understand everything that happens in between. If a payment feels instant and costs us nothing, who is doing the work, who is taking the risk, and who is paying for it?

I sat down with Sameer Nigam of PhonePe, Harshil Mathur of Razorpay, and Sohini Rajola of NPCI to follow a payment through the system. We draw out the journey between an app, the banks and NPCI, get into why the confirmation on our phone and the settlement between banks are different things, and compare that with what happens when we use a credit card. From rewards and merchant fees to fraud, failed transactions and the cost of handling cash, there is a business behind every way we choose to pay.

The conversation also gets into MDR, how the ecosystem funds itself, and what it takes to keep investing in wider access. Then we look ahead: cross-border payments, business payments, wearable rings, digital tipping, and AI agents that might eventually shop and pay for us. The guests disagree on how quickly that future arrives, especially in India.

If you were starting a payments business today, which problem would you try to solve? Watch the full conversation and tell me below.

TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Introduction
02:23 Sohini Rajola: Her journey and NPCI's role
09:40 Banks, fintechs and digital banking
14:11 Harshil Mathur: The problem that led to Razorpay
20:36 Sameer Nigam: His journey before PhonePe
24:08 Why young Indians want to leave
30:28 UPI's early builders and the cost of overregulation
43:16 Flipkart's payment failures and the birth of PhonePe
52:02 How a UPI payment actually works
59:06 If UPI is free, who pays for it?
1:05:26 Instant payments vs bank settlement
1:08:24 Stablecoins, CBDCs and the future of money
1:14:52 Wealth inequality, inheritance and capital gains
1:17:11 The zero-MDR debate: Funding the payments ecosystem
1:21:31 Should UPI apps have market-share caps?
1:33:08 Can new banks and startups compete in India?
1:41:18 How card and merchant payments work
1:49:39 Credit-card rewards and RuPay on UPI
1:54:12 How Razorpay improved online payments
2:02:08 The B2B payments opportunity
2:05:36 Building payments for medical tourism
2:09:54 Why digital tipping is still unsolved
2:16:01 What payment data reveals about India's consumers
2:21:22 Trust and India's next wave of online shoppers
2:26:07 GST, consumption and property taxes
2:31:38 Affordable food, quality and accountability
2:37:55 Cash vs digital: Measuring India's spending
2:42:20 B2B payments, merchant data and access to credit
2:44:31 Stablecoins, cross-border transfers and capital controls
2:51:59 Will AI agents change how we shop and pay?
2:57:57 Is AI in a bubble?
3:03:01 AI costs, productivity and human work
3:08:59 What should young founders build for AI commerce?
3:16:01 Who benefits from AI? Business and investment opportunities
3:24:31 Meet the builders: Seven, Dodo Payments and PayGlocal
3:26:46 How cross-border payments and merchant-of-record models work
3:34:55 Stablecoins and CBDCs: Speed, trust and regulation
3:39:20 The founders' view on competition and market share
3:41:31 Seven's payment rings: Cashback, revenue and adoption
3:47:20 Medical tourism and other cross-border opportunities
3:51:07 Tap-to-pay, tipping and the future of wearables
3:53:48 Cheaper AI and the pace of agentic commerce
3:56:47 Fraud, trust and safeguards for AI payments
3:59:18 Final advice for young fintech founders

GUESTS
Sohini Rajola – Executive Director, Growth at the National Payments Corporation of India (NPCI)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sohinirajola/

Sameer Nigam – Founder and CEO of PhonePe
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanigam/

Harshil Mathur – Co-founder and CEO of Razorpay
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harshilmathur/

ALSO FEATURING PERSPECTIVES FROM
Vijay Khubchandani – Founder & CEO, Seven
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijaykhubchandani/

Prachi Dharani – Co-Founder & CEO, PayGlocal
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/prachi-dharani-94530a9/

Yogesh Lokhande – Co-Founder, PayGlocal
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yogesh-lokhande-b760522/

Ayush Agarwal – Co-Founder & CPTO, Dodo Payments
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aagarwal1012/

HOST
Nikhil Kamath – Co-founder of Zerodha and Gruhas; Host of 'WTF Is' & 'People By WTF' Podcast.
Twitter: https://x.com/nikhilkamathcio/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nikhilkamathcio/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikhilkamathcio?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nikhilkamathcio/

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST

Watch 'WTF Online' on Spotify:
https://tinyurl.com/4tjua4th

#WTFiswithNikhilKamath #PeopleByWTF #WTFOnline

Access the full data and references used in this episode below.
Please open this alongside the episode while watching.
https://canva.link/jzw1hvv14z38mew

Footage Credits & Sources
1. Elon Musk Footage
Source: The Economist (YouTube)
Link: https://youtu.be/1X-rr1DKSbY?si=wLJd3G82bo389CsH

2. Sam Altman Interview
Source: Fortune Magazine (YouTube)
Link: https://youtu.be/2my-NU6LuCM?si=MDhrcvqcu_vlod53&t=336

3. Donald Trump Footage
Source: New York Post (YouTube)
Link: https://youtu.be/RsT2NYu8Y_Y?si=fuOhm3kKY-nWEw63&t=15

4. Australian Government Website hack Clip
Source: Firstpost (YouTube)
Link: https://youtu.be/gmf8sdQGwm4?si=9UT_LCgkldxXH4YV

Is AI a bubble, or are we underestimating how much it can change? That’s the question I kept coming back to in San Francisco. Young companies are attracting extraordinary valuations, while I’m still trying to see how the promised productivity gains are reaching the wider economy.
I put that scepticism to Akshay Kothari of Notion, Vijay Krishnan of Turing, and Ricursive Intelligence’s Azalia Mirhoseini and Anna Goldie. We discuss where the money is coming from, how much of it is moving between AI companies, and what businesses and individuals will actually pay for. They make the case for capabilities that are already useful, smaller teams doing more, and benefits that take time to spread. We also get into chips, human work, AI risks and what India should build.
The technology can be powerful and the prices can still be wrong. I wanted to understand how to tell the difference.

Timestamp:
00:00 Introduction
02:46 Meet Akshay Kothari and Azalia Mirhoseini
05:21 AlphaChip: AI That Designs Computer Chips
12:11 Cheaper Models, More Compute and Custom Chips
17:28 What Notion Does and How AI Changes Work
20:12 Vijay Krishnan and the People Teaching AI
29:18 Understanding the AI Industry From Scratch
32:43 Why Inference Companies Get High Valuations
37:09 The Gap Between AI Capability and Adoption
41:48 Is the AI Investment Boom a Bubble?
46:04 What Happens When AI Can Improve Itself?
53:00 The Changing Work of Training AI
56:35 Why Silicon Valley and China Lead the Race
1:00:38 Where Would You Build an AI Business?
1:07:23 AI Agents and the Productivity Debate
1:17:40 Are We Losing Our Own Thinking Skills?
1:24:23 Meet Anna Goldie
1:30:21 The $100 Million Business Question
1:34:48 What Google Got Right—and What It Missed
1:37:18 AI Chips and NVIDIA’s Advantage
1:39:59 AI Shares, Secondaries and the Wealth Boom
1:42:54 Can Countries and Companies Own Their AI?
1:45:07 Open Models, Scaling Laws and Local AI
1:52:07 AI Risks, Security and Human Control
2:01:05 What Should India Build in AI?
2:07:10 Are AI Safety Warnings Sincere?
2:09:04 How Would You Spend Your Last Month?
2:14:41 What Comes After the Smartphone?
2:17:48 The Future of Social Media and Entertainment
2:21:45 Will AI Replace the Apps We Use?
2:25:51 Final Ideas: Product Design and Better Learning

Akshay Kothari-Co founder and COO, Notion
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/akothari/

Vijay Krishnan-Founder and CTO, Turing-https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijay0/

Anna Goldie-Co founder and CEO, Ricursive Intelligence
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adgoldie/

Azalia Mirhoseini
Co founder and CTO, Ricursive Intelligence
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azalia-mirhoseini-a5308522/

Nikhil Kamath-Co-founder of Zerodha and Gruhas
Host of 'WTF is' & 'People By WTF' Podcast
Twitter: https://x.com/nikhilkamathcio/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nikhilkamathcio/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikhilkamathcio?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nikhilkamathcio/

Watch 'WTF is' Podcast on Spotify
https://tinyurl.com/4nsm4ezn

Watch 'People by WTF' Podcast on Spotify
https://tinyurl.com/yme92c59

Watch 'WTF Online' on Spotify
https://tinyurl.com/4tjua4th

#WTFiswithnikhilkamath #PeopleByWTF #WTFOnline

I went to San Francisco with a basic question: if AI can do more of the work, where does that leave the person doing it today? I asked Akshay Kothari of Notion, Vijay Krishnan of Turing, and Ricursive Intelligence’s Azalia Mirhoseini and Anna Goldie to help me understand what is changing. We got into people teaching AI to do their own kinds of work, small teams using it to do more, why the money going into this industry makes me nervous, and what someone starting out in India should make of it. I kept asking them to explain it more simply, because I wanted to understand the opportunity as well as the risk. Here’s a first look at WTF is AI. Full conversation coming soon.

Akshay Kothari — Co-founder and COO, Notion
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/akothari/

Vijay Krishnan — Founder and CTO, Turing
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijay0/

Anna Goldie — Co-founder and CEO, Ricursive Intelligence
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adgoldie/

Azalia Mirhoseini — Co-founder and CTO, Ricursive Intelligence
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azalia-mirhoseini-a5308522/

Nikhil Kamath — Co-founder of Zerodha and Gruhas
Host of WTF is and People By WTF podcasts
Twitter: https://x.com/nikhilkamathcio/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nikhilkamathcio/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikhilkamathcio?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nikhilkamathcio/

Listen to the podcasts on Spotify
WTF is
People by WTF
WTF Online

#WTFiswithnikhilkamath #PeopleByWTF #WTFOnline

I wanted to start by drawing a diagram of the different kinds of payments and how we got here. We use UPI for everything from everyday purchases to applying for an IPO, but using it and understanding it are different things. What makes us choose one way to pay over another? What does it take to build trust? And why does a conversation about competition turn into a disagreement about who should be allowed to decide?

This one moves from consumer incentives and bank regulation to the scale of UPI, caps on market share, and the possibility of AI agents transacting for us. There is disagreement over the costs, the timing, and whether changing commerce means payments must change too. Twenty pages of questions at the table, and one more subject waiting at the end: MDR.

Sohini Rajola- Executive Director Growth at the National Payments Corporation of India.
Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/in/sohinirajola/

Sameer Nigam- Founder and CEO of PhonePE
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanigam/

Harshil Mathur: Co-founder and CEO of Razorpay
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harshilmathur/

Nikhil Kamath-Co-founder of Zerodha and Gruhas
Host of 'WTF is' & 'People By WTF' Podcast
Twitter: https://x.com/nikhilkamathcio/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nikhilkamathcio/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikhilkamathcio?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nikhilkamathcio/

Watch 'WTF is' Podcast on Spotify
https://tinyurl.com/4nsm4ezn

Watch 'People by WTF' Podcast on Spotify
https://tinyurl.com/yme92c59

Watch 'WTF Online' on Spotify
https://tinyurl.com/4tjua4th

#WTFiswithnikhilkamath #PeopleByWTF #WTFOnline

Access the full data and references used in this episode below.
Please open this alongside the episode while watching.
Open Reference Document

I put Rajesh Magow, the chartered accountant who co-founded MakeMyTrip on a team where almost nobody knew travel, and Puneet Chhatwal, the Delhi boy who spent twenty-eight years running hotels in Europe before coming home to pull IHCL out of a decade of losses, into one room to explain the business of Indian travel from scratch, and what came out was far bigger than a lesson, from why boutique hotels are better built by outsiders and how a fifty crore partnership between their companies became twelve hundred, to what a hotel actually pays to sit on MakeMyTrip and why booking direct still isn't cheaper, why ChatGPT can't scrape its way into the travel funnel and where voice bookings are taking tier-three India, why Puneet thinks the answer for a 25-year-old isn't another app but a small, clean hotel, why only ten million foreigners visit a country with more than forty UNESCO sites, what went wrong in Goa and where the next thirty Goas should be, why tourism being a state subject is the real bottleneck, and the full playbook both of them would run to take India from ten million tourists to a hundred million.

Timestamp:
00:00 Introduction
07:03 Getting to Know the Guests
14:30 How MakeMyTrip’s Hotel Partnerships Work
21:45 Booking Direct vs Travel Apps
28:26 Puneet Chhatwal’s Journey from Delhi to Europe
35:01 Building Villa Stays & Solo Travel Businesses
41:43 Will AI Change How We Book Travel?
48:40 Customer Data vs Personal Hospitality
55:43 Can Robots Replace Hotel Staff?
1:03:05 Bringing Small-Town India into Online Travel
1:09:52 Should Hotels Cut Out the Middleman?
1:16:37 India’s Mid-Range Hotel Opportunity
1:23:51 Marketing India & Fixing Tourism Taxes
1:30:46 Mass Tourism vs Luxury Tourism in Goa
1:38:26 Can Luxury Trains Attract Premium Tourists?
1:44:44 Civic Sense & the Tourist Experience
1:51:24 Making India’s Attractions Discoverable & Bookable
1:58:44 Alibaug’s Potential & the Homestay Business
2:05:56 Why Celebrations Are Driving Villa Bookings
2:13:42 What Travel Business Should a 25-Year-Old Start?
2:19:43 Handling Bad Experiences & Building Trust
2:27:16 Nandan Nilekani & the Shift to Hotel Branding
2:34:40 What It Takes to Run an Asset-Light Hotel Brand
2:41:13 The Wellness Hotel Opportunity
2:48:44 Building Travel Businesses for Gen Z
2:56:16 Travel Education & New Business Ideas
3:02:19 Unlocking Unexplored India
3:08:42 Building New Destinations & Event Tourism
3:15:38 Private Jet Economics & Closing Thoughts

Rajesh Magow, Co-Founder & Group CEO, MakeMyTrip Limited
LinkedIn: Rajesh Magow

Puneet Chhatwal, Managing Director & Chief Executive Officer, The Indian Hotels Company Limited (IHCL)
LinkedIn: Puneet Chhatwal

Nikhil Kamath — Co-founder of Zerodha and Gruhas
Host of 'WTF is' & 'People By WTF' Podcast
Twitter: Twitter
Instagram: Instagram
LinkedIn: LinkedIn
Facebook: Facebook

Watch 'WTF is' Podcast on Spotify
Spotify

#WTFiswithnikhilkamath #PeopleByWTF #WTFOnline