Divergent States

The Many Faces of Coca – Part Two
In Part Two of the Many Faces of Coca series, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with renowned ethnopharmacologist Dennis McKenna to explore the science behind the coca leaf.
Part One focused on history and politics with Wade Davis, this conversation turns to the biology and chemistry of the plant itself.
What actually happens when coca is chewed?
What compounds exist in the leaf besides cocaine?
Why did human cultures independently domesticate coca multiple times?
Dennis breaks down the alkaloid chemistry, pharmacology, and plant symbiosis that shaped coca’s role in Andean societies for thousands of years.
Along the way, the conversation explores:
• The three coca species used by humans
• Why coca and cocaine are chemically and culturally different
• The entourage effect of whole plant medicines
• How alkaline activation changes coca absorption
• Why coca chewing may help treat cocaine addiction
• The scientific questions prohibition has prevented researchers from asking
The result is a clearer picture of a plant that has been misunderstood for over a century.
This episode is Part Two of a three-part series examining coca from history, chemistry, and lived experience.
Part Three will explore how coca prohibition shapes real life in Andean communities with Manuela Picq.
Key Points
Coca comes from three main domesticated species in the genus Erythroxylum.
The coca leaf contains multiple alkaloids, not just cocaine.
Cocaine is only one compound within a larger phytochemical matrix in the leaf.
Traditional coca chewing uses alkaline substances to increase alkaloid absorption.
Whole plant use produces a broader entourage effect compared to isolated cocaine.
Indigenous cultures independently domesticated coca multiple times across South America.
Coca may help high-altitude populations adapt through increased energy, nutrition, and appetite suppression.
Cocaine acts primarily as a dopamine reuptake inhibitor in the brain.
Some evidence suggests chewing coca may help people transition away from cocaine dependence
Chapters:
00:00 – What Is Coca? The Question That Starts Everything
00:44 – Major Psilocybin News: Compass Pathways Phase 3 Results
04:28 – The Many Faces of Coca Series (Part 2 Introduction)
07:36 – Dennis McKenna Joins the Conversation
08:09 – Coca vs Cocaine: The Botanical Reality
15:06 – Why Humans Domesticated Coca
18:23 – Why Humans Seek Altered States of Consciousness
26:06 – What’s Actually Inside the Coca Leaf?
31:31 – Why Coca Is Not the Same as Cocaine
36:48 – Is Coca Addictive? The Science Explained
42:23 – The Medical Potential of Coca
48:41 – Why Drug Laws Block Scientific Research
55:25 – What We Learned From the Chemistry of Coca
59:33 – The War on Drugs and the Economics of Coca
01:00:42 – Next Episode: The Human Cost of Prohibition 
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In Part One of The Many Faces of Coca, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Wade Davis to unpack the long history of the coca leaf and how a plant used for over 8,000 years became globally criminalized.
This conversation isn’t about cocaine. It’s about coca.
Wade walks us through:
How coca was independently domesticated multiple times in pre-Columbian South America
Why early 20th-century elites blamed coca for poverty instead of confronting inequality
The 1949 UN commission that arrived with its conclusions already written
The nutritional research that challenged decades of ideology
How the modern international scheduling framework still treats coca as if it were fentanyl or heroin
Why the recent WHO review maintained the status quo — and what that means
We also explore the deeper cultural reality: coca as ritual exchange, spiritual alignment, social glue, and daily sustenance in the Andes.
This episode lays the foundation for the series.
Next, we move into the ethnobiology with Dennis McKenna.
Then we examine sovereignty and lived realities with Manuela Picq.
If you’ve ever wondered why coca gets ignored while other plant medicines dominate Western discourse, this is where we start pulling that thread.
This isn’t nostalgia.
It’s about policy, ideology, and whether a plant can be separated from the story told about it.
Key Points
Coca has been used for over 8,000 years in the Andes, distinct from cocaine.
Cocaine is an extracted alkaloid; the leaf itself functions very differently.
Coca was independently domesticated three times in pre-Columbian South America.
The leaf contains significant nutritional value (calcium, vitamins, protein) and aids digestion at altitude.
Early 20th-century elites blamed coca for poverty and social issues instead of structural inequality.
The 1949 UN commission formed conclusions before conducting meaningful investigation.
The 1961 UN drug scheduling framework still reflects that early ideological bias.
Coca plays a central spiritual and social role in Andean cultures (ritual exchange, prayer, daily labor).
Prohibition has fueled violence, displacement, and environmental harm in coca-growing regions.
The core policy question is political, not pharmacological: can coca be separated from cocaine in law and narrative?
Chapters
 00:00 – 8,000 Years of Coca
 04:19 – What Is Coca?
 08:22 – Traditional Use & Preparation
 14:36 – The 1949 UN Commission
 23:10 – Drug War Consequences
 29:23 – Coca as Cultural Foundation
 33:40 – Why There’s No Public Constituency
 43:35 – Coca vs Cocaine Extraction
 46:00 – DEA, Cartels & Prohibition Incentives
 50:47 – If You Remember One Thing
 53:10 – Reflection & Series Preview 
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Iboga has a reputation.
It’s intense. It’s long. It carries real risk. And for some people, it’s life-changing.
But what actually happens inside a retreat container? And what does this work look like behind the scenes?
In this episode of Divergent States, 3L1T3 and Bryan sit down with Paije West and Fletcher Burdick, founders of ETEREO, an iboga retreat center in Baja, Mexico. Their approach sits somewhere between medical oversight and traditional ceremony, which opens up some thoughtful questions about safety, responsibility, integration, and how we talk about powerful medicines without turning them into mythology.
This isn’t a hype piece.
It’s a grounded conversation about:
• The difference between iboga and ibogaine
 • Cardiac risk and how they screen for it
 • Why they sometimes say “no”
 • What ceremony actually does (beyond aesthetics)
 • Whether luxury retreat settings help or distract
 • Why integration matters more than most people think
 • And whether the field might be moving a little too fast
We talk about neuroplasticity, structure vs freedom, tradition vs extraction, and what’s still unknown about iboga.
If you’re curious about the medicine — or about how people try to hold it responsibly — this one’s worth your time.
The extended, more personal segment continues on Patreon.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Introducing Bryan & Why This Conversation Matters
 02:00 – Framing the Episode: No Miracle Claims
 03:15 – What ETEREO Is (In Plain Language)
 07:00 – What an Iboga Retreat Looks Like
 11:20 – Iboga vs Ibogaine
 14:30 – Ceremony: Structure, Not Symbolism
 16:30 – Neuroplasticity & Set and Setting
 17:40 – Who Iboga Is Not For
 21:30 – Safety & Medical Screening
 24:30 – Small Groups vs High-Volume Clinics
 25:30 – “Conscious Luxury” — Does It Help?
 29:00 – Stepping Away from the Real World
 30:00 – Why Integration Is Everything
 32:00 – Relational Healing
 35:00 – Why They Don’t Track Outcomes Like Clinics
 36:10 – Incentives & Avoiding Extraction
 39:10 – Is the Field Moving Too Fast?
 40:00 – What We Still Don’t Know About Iboga
 41:30 – Final Reflections
 42:00 – Patreon Segment Tease
 44:50 – Closing Thoughts
 🎧 Extended version available on Patreon
🎓 Zendo Project peer-support training: use code DIVERGENTS10
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What happens when a 25-year career at CNN ends — and a new life begins?
In this episode of Divergent States, we talk with Cesar Marin, former CNN producer and founder of Microdosing Over 50, about how psychedelics helped him navigate midlife, identity loss, and personal reinvention.
Cesar shares his journey from broadcast media to becoming an advocate for intentional microdosing later in life. We explore the difference between microdosing for healing vs optimization, how intention shapes outcomes, and why people over 50 face unique integration challenges.
We also discuss:
 • Microdosing psilocybin vs LSD
 • Career loss and psychedelic-driven reinvention
 • Presence, connection, and integration practices
 • How media shapes psychedelic narratives
 • Why midlife may be the most powerful time for change
 • Healing vs performance framing in psychedelic use
 • Stigma, legality, and education
 • Building a mission-driven life after burnout
This conversation is about more than substances — it’s about agency, curiosity, and what happens when you stop outsourcing your meaning.
🎧 Extended version available on Patreon
🎓 Zendo Project peer-support training: use code DIVERGENTS10
🧠 For listeners interested in microdosing, midlife transitions, and psychedelic culture
https://cultivatingwisdom.net/
⏱️ Chapter Markers
00:00 – Introduction & Cesar’s background
 01:45 – 25 years at CNN and getting laid off
 04:30 – Discovering psychedelics at 55
 06:40 – Cultivating Wisdom & microdosing over 50
 10:15 – Loss, grief, and mission-driven work
 13:10 – What shifted personally
 17:45 – Early doubts and first psychedelic experience
 22:23 – Fun vs healing: why people stay
 22:41 – How media shaped his psychedelic voice
 26:13 – Bad headlines and stigma
 28:26 – Why storytelling matters
 29:18 – Midlife fear and reinvention
 32:12 – “It’s not almost over — it’s just starting”
 33:18 – Integration for older adults
 37:55 – Meditation, presence, and connection
 39:13 – Healing vs optimization
 43:45 – Microdosing LSD vs psilocybin
 46:36 – Psychedelic commercialization
 47:47 – Public episode wrap-up
 48:31 – Post-interview reflections
 50:05 – Bryan’s takeaway
 52:11 – Healing vs optimization framing
 54:17 – Outro & Patreon plug
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What really happens when psychedelics change someone, and why do some people come back grounded while others spiral into ego, conspiracy, or spiritual bypassing?
In this long-form conversation, comedian and science-minded psychonaut Shane Mauss joins Divergent States for a deep dive into what psychedelics do to the human mind beneath the mystical language. Drawing on neuroscience, cognitive bias, evolutionary psychology, and lived psychedelic experience, Shane explains how substances like LSD, mushrooms, and DMT increase mental plasticity, loosen rigid categories, and open the brain to new ways of thinking — for better and for worse.
Together, we explore why altered states can lead to creativity, healing, and insight, but also why they can just as easily fuel delusion, conspiracy thinking, and inflated ego. We talk about the placebo effect, Dunning-Kruger, belief formation, and how access to infinite information can make people feel like they know everything while understanding very little. Shane also shares candid stories from inside the psychedelic comedy world, including how Tales From the Trip was secretly launched at Comedy Central, why he’s uneasy about the current psychedelic “gold rush,” and how mainstream acceptance has changed the culture.
This episode isn’t about chasing cosmic secrets or mystical narratives. It’s about how the mind actually works — and how psychedelics can either help us become more open, curious, and flexible, or lock us deeper into fantasy if we don’t know how to think critically about what we experience.
If you care about psychedelics, consciousness, and staying grounded in reality while exploring extraordinary states, this conversation is for you.
Shane's new special comes out 2/18 on ShaneMauss.com!
Special thanks to Drip who did the music, check him out on Spotify and Soundcloud!
 00:00 — Season 2 Opening
 04:18 — From Stand-Up to Science
 07:40 — Creating Psychedelic Theater
 11:40 — Why Psychedelic Comedy Was Taboo
 14:50 — Tales From the Trip Origin Story
 19:20 — Why He Doesn’t Feel Like a Regular Comic
 23:40 — Comedy as Tension and Truth
 34:00 — George Carlin and Big-Idea Comedy
 38:20 — Psychedelics Going Mainstream
 41:00 — Skeptical Psychonauts
 45:20 — Seeing the Dark Side of the Scene
 47:45 — Psychedelics, Categorization, and the Brain
 51:30 — The Crunchy-to-Conservative Pipeline
 54:00 — Dunning-Kruger and Illusions of Knowledge
 57:10 — Why Science Is Counterintuitive
 01:02:40 — Why These Conversations Matter 
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Support the show
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