Directionally Correct, A People Intelligence Podcast

Thanks to HRBench for powering this episode. To find out more about the company building the future of people intelligence, reach out to book a demo at hrbench.com/directionallycorrect!

Check out this episode of the #1 people intelligence podcast with special guest, ⁠Kelly Monahan⁠, Future of Work & AI Advisor and recent Author of “Reclaim the Plot”!

Cole Napper sits down with Kelly for a wide-ranging conversation that moves from the uncanny to the practical and back again. Kelly recounts spending six hours in a recording studio so an AI digital avatar could learn her likeness, then months training it, only to watch that digital twin land in the Wall Street Journal. Her first reaction was that it was creepy: a likeness that was her and yet not her. Over time she began using it to open keynotes and to show that the AI conversation is larger than large language models, though she is candid that it is still more novelty than something she would send into a meeting the way Reed Hoffman does.
That experiment sits inside a larger argument. After years in tech, Kelly concluded we have lost the plot on the pursuit of AI. The technology has existed since the 1950s; the current wave is real and transformative, especially agentic systems, but treating early ChatGPT as an excuse to hollow out knowledge work without redesigning the work itself is a mistake. Productivity gains show up, she says, citing McKinsey and BCG, only when work redesign accompanies the tools. Only about 21 percent of companies have done that redesign. Without it, people simply send more email and sit in more meetings. AI becomes an expensive way to illuminate how poorly designed the work was in the first place.
Kelly walks through a simulation she built in hours for her forthcoming book’s fictional company, Driftwell—work that would once have taken a team ninety days and tens of thousands of dollars. A parent agent spun up specialists, connected to HubSpot, and orchestrated the whole thing. She defines an agent as a system that takes action toward a goal rather than merely chatting. The same pattern appeared in her four years at Upwork around the November 2022 “D-Day” of ChatGPT: the freelancer market entered an existential crisis, disruption arrived slowly rather than overnight, early AI users earned more and bid on larger projects, and inequity widened along a power-law distribution. The lasting finding was that this is a massive skilling moment, especially for transactional content work.
The conversation turns to leadership. Most senior leaders mandate AI without using it themselves, either because they believe strategy is too elevated for tools or because they fear the C-suite itself will shrink. Intelligence and expertise are being commoditized; what remains is change management and the messy human middle that agents cannot yet own. Accountability becomes the billion-dollar question: if two hundred agents gather the inputs, can an executive still be accountable for a decision they cannot fully verify? Span of control, entry-level learning-by-doing pathways in consulting, and the dignity of physical work all get examined. Kelly worries we told a generation to abandon the physical world even though those jobs often carry meaning, community, and contribution that leisure-only futures may not replace.
In Cole’s Corner they cover growth mindset (Kelly argues the label matters less than accompanying behavioral interventions and human relating), the 1975 “folly of rewarding A while hoping for B,” broken performance management, and eye-watering revenue-per-employee figures that raise questions about reinvestment, customers, and long-term social consequences. Kelly points listeners to LinkedIn and reclaimtheplotbook.com. If you like this episode, you’d also love exploring prior episodes—visit colenapper.com for the full archive and show links.

Thanks to HRBench for powering this episode. To find out more about the company building the future of people intelligence, reach out to book a demo at hrbench.com/directionallycorrect!

Check out this episode of the #1 people intelligence podcast with special guest, Kevin Trowbridge, Director of Compensation and HRIS at Kimray!

In this conversation Cole Napper sits down with Kevin to unpack what it means to lead compensation and HRIS as one combined function at a 78-year-old Oklahoma manufacturer that had no dedicated role for either until 2024. Kevin landed in the work almost by accident: a math degree, a banking career that burned him out, and a friend who spotted a utility job that wanted someone who could handle numbers. That first administrator seat taught the unglamorous truth. You run the reports, match the jobs, build the structures, and learn that compensation is finance with a human being on the other side of every figure. The work still looks more like an apprenticeship than something you can absorb from a book. WorldatWork’s CCP typically takes three to five years because the classroom only sticks if you are already living the messy decisions.

Comp ratios, percentiles, internal equity, and survey matching all sound like people-analytics language, so Cole asks why compensation and people analytics so rarely sit in the same room. Kevin’s answer is blunt. Pay makes people nervous. Companies that lag the market do not want that exposed. Culture can offset dollars, and at Kimray it often does. Tenure of 40-plus years is still common. Leaders teach culture to other businesses through a foundation. Frontline supervisors get executive-level leadership training. People stay because the values match, not because every offer sits at the 75th percentile.

Kimray manufactures pressure regulators, valves, sensors, and level controllers for oil and gas, made in the USA. Until May 1 of this year it was family owned. It is now an ESOP, so employees become beneficial owners through a company-funded retirement plan that sits on top of the 401(k). That ownership story collides with another unusual design choice: the CEO refuses traditional sales commissions. He does not want credit-stealing or split-store fights. Sales grew from roughly 100 million to the 230–250 million range with a company-wide EBITDA bonus instead. The team is now testing a group accelerator so everyone rows toward the same outcome.

AI is the thread that keeps Kevin up at night. Tools like Claude already save his analyst hours and even teach him Python. HRBench turned a ten-minute request for three years of departmental turnover into a clean, trusted slide. Workforce planning lets finance and leaders add, subtract, and cost positions in the same conversation. Kevin still asks the moral question: if AI swallows the entry-level report running and employee-relations grunt work, who develops the next generation of compensation and HRIS professionals? In ten years the seniors will retire unless companies keep the apprenticeship intact.

The episode also lands in a 60–65 percent blue-collar workforce. Extreme heat changes time spent at work not working. Air conditioning in a machine shop is a retention variable, not a perk. Kevin lives that contrast personally: diesel truck, red Oklahoma dirt, 11 acres, pond, chickens, a log-cabin house next to the in-laws, and a history nerd’s dream of Trowbridge, England. Rapid-fire Cole’s Corner covers banking as the road not taken, Neo from The Matrix, and a three-year forecast in which agentic tools run basic analysis in the background while compensation, analytics, and core HR finally stop living in separate Excel dumps. Attract, reward, and retain only work if the numbers, the culture, the systems, and the next generation of talent are treated as one problem. This episode is the field notes. If you like this episode, you’d also love exploring prior episodes—visit colenapper.com for the full archive and show links.

Thanks to HRBench for powering this episode. To find out more about the company building the future of people intelligence, reach out to book a demo at hrbench.com/directionallycorrect!

Check out this episode of the #1 people intelligence podcast with special guest, Denise Teo, Former Head of Analytics & People Science at Grab!

Denise spent nearly a decade at Grab, the Southeast Asia super app that began in 2012 to make rides safer where that was not a given. Today it is a hyper-local platform for rides, food, financial services, and B2B work. She joined in 2016 when Grab was still small, first in operations analytics, then commercial and product, before switching into people. She is not from HR or I-O psychology. She came from tech analytics and found the place where quantitative rigor meets the messy applied world of people. She built the function from zero to one, then rebranded it as People Science: stop stopping at insights and get better at effecting change through real partnerships.

Denise is self-critical about the traps people analytics teams fall into. First, caring more about methods than outcomes. Complexity becomes a proxy for skill even when the business is not ready. Firms advertise the coolest methods, then drop people into sanitized work that never uses them. Cole argues there is little correlation between method sophistication and business value. Second, not knowing who the users are: employees, leadership, and the people team. User research should be easier because users sit in the same office, yet teams still skip discovery. Many analytics products exist only to paper over bad HCM interfaces. Third, failing to bring users along. Nascent functions outpace readiness; partners who are not data-native retreat to Excel when the model arrives.

Southeast Asia makes the work harder and richer. Cultures and languages differ sharply. Qualitative text was nearly inaccessible before large language models unlocked an asset that used to sit unused. Denise sees the field growing fast in Asia.

She simplifies the practice into thinking, doing, and communicating. The doing layer is what most people enjoy and what AI is hollowing out fastest. What remains is judgment about the right problems, design of guardrails, and translating insights for brains that do not think like yours. You move from the factory floor to the control tower. Cole maps this to his inquisitor-and-change-agent framing and adds orchestration of agents. Both worry that a thousand flowers blooming can scale noise as fast as signal.

That shift hits identity. Denise is leaving full-time work at Grab to try fractional practice across more organizations. She describes the hollow feeling many analysts report: routines vanish, mastery of SQL or Python feels threatened, and purpose thins when the tasks that defined the job are no longer yours. Cognitive surrender is uncritical acceptance of AI outputs in place of your own reasoning. Cole contrasts people intelligence with workforce intelligence. The first treats AI as a tool that serves humans. The second risks putting people in service to the machine.

Ethics and privacy have cooled even as data use expanded. Denise’s heuristics are symmetry, transparency matched by action, and consent plus agency. Value has to flow back to employees or the exchange stays extractive. Cole tests the principle at the limit with genetic data; Denise holds to those heuristics rather than a yes or no.

In Cole’s Corner she would have been a fusion chef, most wants to see Iceland, and picks the zebra from Racing Stripes who believes he can race with thoroughbreds. On fractional leadership she says budget constraints already push organizations toward smaller units of exchange. They close on Andrew Merritt’s output-gap piece and John Sullivan on brilliant jerks. Denise is on LinkedIn. Hire her.
If you like this episode, you’d also love exploring prior episodes—visit colenapper.com for the full archive and show links.

Thanks to HRBench for powering this episode. To find out more about the company building the future of people intelligence, reach out to book a demo at hrbench.com/directionallycorrect!

Check out this episode of the #1 people intelligence podcast with special guest, Roxanne Bisby Davis, Head of People Intelligence at Cisco!

Cole Napper talks with Roxanne about a title they almost share, how people intelligence gets built inside a large technology company, and why trust has to sit at the center of listening and analytics. Roxanne has been at Cisco more than twenty-six years. She arrived in 2000 as a contingent worker, converted to full time later that year, and did not set out to run this function. She started in recruiting, was pulled into HR marketing because she knew PowerPoint, learned to simplify executive messages so people across the company could understand the intent, covered a leave and inherited early meeting surveys, and stayed as Cisco invested in listening, research, data science, and storytelling. People intelligence stuck as the name because the work outgrew an annual census or a narrow analytics shop. Her team now includes researchers, data scientists, and storytellers looking at the full depth of humans at work, not just the average. She keeps coming back to Todd Rose’s point that nobody is an average. Leaders need the range if decisions are going to serve more than the middle. Storytelling starts with listening more than speaking, asking questions that pull color and context, reading the room, and answering the “what’s in it for me” so people feel seen. Trust has followed her for years because it is so individualized and so fragile when teams and leaders keep moving. Psychological safety was a major finding in Cisco’s 2016 best-team research. Reciprocal trust matters: employees trusting the institution, and the institution extending trust back instead of treating listening as one-way extraction. She welcomes skeptics because skepticism sharpens transparency. Cisco tested survey load before a full census in 2006, ran annual surveys into the mid-2010s, then moved to quarterly plus continuous listening so they would not have to ask every day. Daily thumbs-up surveys can work in cultures that close the loop fast. In a company of Cisco’s size, the cost of attention can make daily asks feel like asking for asking’s sake. Cole compares that to Buffett’s weighing machine versus voting machine: a snapshot is not the same as a relationship that changes behavior. Roxanne also traces ITSG, the IT Survey Group that spun from the old Mayflower consortium so tech companies could share norms and get practical help without cold-calling peers. She still values consortiums that pull you out of your own echo chamber. She has always tried to make order out of chaos and treat messy organizational problems as pattern puzzles. If she were not doing this work she would be a professional organizer. She most wants to visit New Zealand and she would be Mary Poppins, walking around with a bag of tricks to connect people and make things better. Looking ahead, she argues the field only grows where capability is paired with radical transparency. New tools make surveillance cheap. That is why informed consent, employee choice, and the human premium matter more, not less. Psychology in the loop is not the same as a vague human-in-the-loop slogan. AI slop flattens people toward the average. Automation works when you design human-automation-human chains instead of sprinkling potential onto isolated tasks. Skills inference only works if employees keep voice and agency, because a skill you can do but hate will not produce engagement. People intelligence is synthesis across individual motivation, team conditions, process, and business outcomes, not a single data layer pretending to be the whole story. If you like this episode, you’d also love exploring prior episodes—visit colenapper.com for the full archive and show links.

Thanks to HRBench for powering this episode. To find out more about the company building the future of people intelligence, reach out to book a demo at hrbench.com/directionallycorrect!

Check out this episode of the #1 people intelligence podcast with special guest, Jack Buckley, Chief People and Systems Officer at Roblox!

In this wide-ranging conversation, host Cole Napper sits down with Jack to explore his unconventional journey from Navy nuclear engineer and tenured statistics professor to running a federal agency and now leading both the people and systems teams at the gaming platform company. They dig into what it really means to hold a dual CHRO and CIO role, with Jack arguing that success depends more on the right organization than a uniquely special person. At a mid-size, engineering-heavy firm like Roblox with around 3,500 employees, combining people processes with internal tools and enterprise systems creates powerful synergies that might not work elsewhere, especially where the systems side focuses less on pure technical leadership and more on how work actually gets done day to day. Jack shares how he arrived at Roblox through the rapid acquisition of his game-based assessment startup during the pandemic, just weeks before a planned sale to McKinsey, bringing deep expertise from redesigning the SAT at the College Board, leading research and psychometrics at the National Center for Education Statistics, and pioneering innovative measurement approaches at places like the American Institutes for Research. Listeners will hear about the frontier of game-based assessment for hiring early-career software engineers, product managers, and data scientists, including why explainable scoring rooted in evidence-centered design and item response theory still matters even as AI reshapes technical evaluations, and how the team moved existing technology onto the Roblox platform itself while maintaining rigorous, non-black-box methods. The discussion turns to AI enablement across the business, from safe agentic coding tools embedded in engineering workflows to thoughtful automation that avoids black-box risks in HR, legal, and finance, plus practical lessons on verifying outputs, building deterministic harnesses, and focusing on real workplace problems rather than hype or vendor pitches. Jack also reflects on building people analytics and employee listening from scratch when the company was far smaller, the value of succession planning that exposed him gradually to every part of the function, the necessity of humility when moving from specialized analytics into broader service leadership, and even using Roblox itself for multi-day new-hire orientation, game jams that teach both play and Studio creation, and cooperative team-building experiences. Along the way the conversation wanders into favorite pizza styles from New York to thin-crust Chicago tavern style, the sudden midlife appeal of birdwatching with AI feeders, cooperative games like Helldivers 2 that reward communication over competition, and the midlife questions facing people analytics as a field, including whether it is experiencing a true crisis of trailblazers versus button-pushers or simply needing new S-curves of applied problem-solving drawn from neighboring domains like labor economics and operations research. Packed with insight on measurement, talent strategy, technology enablement, and leadership that blends rigorous science with practical problem-solving, this episode captures the spirit that defines directionally correct people intelligence while showing how one career can connect nuclear engineering, educational testing, serious games, and the dual people-and-systems mandate at a major platform company. If you like this episode, you’d also love exploring prior episodes—visit colenapper.com for the full archive and show links.